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Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Pink Ball

Ranking titles
1. Ding Junhui: 13
2. Jimmy White: 10
3. Judd Trump: 7
4. Stephen Maguire: 5
= Stephen Lee: 5
6. Ali Carter: 4
7. Mark Allen: 3
= Marco Fu: 3
= Barry Hawkins: 3
= Ricky Walden: 3
= Paul Hunter: 3
= James Wattana: 3

Major titles including International Championship
1. Ding Junhui: 4
2. Doug Mountjoy: 3
= Paul Hunter: 3
4. Jimmy White: 2
= Matthew Stevens: 2
= Judd Trump: 2

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Badsnookerplayer

That's interesting. I think that of the list only these would have/will make worthy World Champs:

Ding Junhui, Jimmy White, Judd Trump, Paul Hunter.

Any of the others would have been looked on as weak WCs in my opinion.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Pink Ball wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:That's interesting.

Yes, I've always been a respected contributor on here.



All I want you to do for me
Is give it to me when you get home
Yeah baby
Whip it to me (respect, just a little bit)
When you get home, now (just a little bit)

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Pink Ball

Badsnookerplayer wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:That's interesting.

Yes, I've always been a respected contributor on here.



All I want you to do for me
Is give it to me when you get home
Yeah baby
Whip it to me (respect, just a little bit)
When you get home, now (just a little bit)

Are you trying to seduce me?

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Badsnookerplayer

I came to make you shake it til you break it
Caress your body until your naked
Bend you over grab your shoulder
Slip my peter inside your folder
Make you sweat get you wetter
Pump it faster to make it better
Dim the the light then lock the room
Cause now it's time for me to hit that boom

Boom boom boom let me here you say way-ooh (way-ooh)
Me say boom boom boom now everybody say way-ooh (way-ooh)

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Wildey

Badsnookerplayer wrote:That's interesting. I think that of the list only these would have/will make worthy World Champs:

Ding Junhui, Jimmy White, Judd Trump, Paul Hunter.

Any of the others would have been looked on as weak WCs in my opinion.

No such thing as Weak World Champion.


Yes some have better overall Record however for 17 days if you win it you deserve it

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby mick745

Pink Ball wrote:Ranking titles
1. Ding Junhui: 13
2. Jimmy White: 10
3. Judd Trump: 7
4. Stephen Maguire: 5
= Stephen Lee: 5
6. Ali Carter: 4
7. Mark Allen: 3
= Marco Fu: 3
= Barry Hawkins: 3
= Ricky Walden: 3
= Paul Hunter: 3
= James Wattana: 3

Major titles including International Championship
1. Ding Junhui: 4
2. Doug Mountjoy: 3
= Paul Hunter: 3
4. Jimmy White: 2
= Matthew Stevens: 2
= Judd Trump: 2

Quite a few still on tour and in with a chance, although most if not all will miss out altogether with Selby's dominance.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Wildey wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:That's interesting. I think that of the list only these would have/will make worthy World Champs:

Ding Junhui, Jimmy White, Judd Trump, Paul Hunter.

Any of the others would have been looked on as weak WCs in my opinion.

No such thing as Weak World Champion.


Yes some have better overall Record however for 17 days if you win it you deserve it

I agree you deserve it, but do you honestly view Graeme Dott as equally strong as (say) Hendry?

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby SnookerFan

Badsnookerplayer wrote:I agree you deserve it, but do you honestly view Graeme Dott as equally strong as (say) Hendry?



Hendry won it seven times, more than anybody in The Crucible era.

To find somebody who is a one-time champion and ask; "Are they as good as Hendry?" is a silly question.

We were debating whether you can win the World Champion if you are a weak player. You obviously can't. That's not the same thing as saying everybody who won it once, is as good as The Crucible record holder.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby SnookerFan

Badsnookerplayer wrote:OK - point taken.

What I was getting at was from Pink Ball's original list, those that I highlighted wouldn't be viewed as 'surprise' winners whereas the others would. 'Surprise' is a better word than 'weak'.


Yes.

Nobody is claiming that there aren't levels. There are. Of course, people like Ronnie and Hendry are higher on the all time great list than players like Bingham or Dott. I don't believe anybody is arguing that.

The debate seems to be on how you define the word; "weak". Being the weakest ever World Champion is a bit like being the poorest multi-millionaire in the world.

Take Bingham. He was World Number 10 when he won The Crucible. He had previously won two ranking events, and the Premier League. Nobody, myself included, would've predicted his win before the tournament started. But he had an incredibly tough route to get there, and he won it. The BBC pre-final were making out that Bingham was some kind of nobody, despite his prior achievements. There were only two places in the ranking between him and Murphy.

Also, last year, when the news came out that Joe Johnson's kids had taped over his title winning achievement with cartoons, I saw a presenter on the telly refer to him as; "An amateur who won the World Title". He was in the top-16 in the World.

There's a difference between not being one of the five greatest players of all time, and being weak. I'm a weak snooker player. One-Crucible wonders like Bingham and Dott are not.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby SnookerFan

SnookerFan wrote:Yes.

Nobody is claiming that there aren't levels. There are. Of course, people like Ronnie and Hendry are higher on the all time great list than players like Bingham or Dott. I don't believe anybody is arguing that.

The debate seems to be on how you define the word; "weak". Being the weakest ever World Champion is a bit like being the poorest multi-millionaire in the world.

Take Bingham. He was World Number 10 when he won The Crucible. He had previously won two ranking events, and the Premier League. Nobody, myself included, would've predicted his win before the tournament started. But he had an incredibly tough route to get there, and he won it. The BBC pre-final were making out that Bingham was some kind of nobody, despite his prior achievements. There were only two places in the ranking between him and Murphy.

Also, last year, when the news came out that Joe Johnson's kids had taped over his title winning achievement with cartoons, I saw a presenter on the telly refer to him as; "An amateur who won the World Title". He was in the top-16 in the World.

There's a difference between not being one of the five greatest players of all time, and being weak. I'm a weak snooker player. One-Crucible wonders like Bingham and Dott are not.



Having said all that, I don't think that means we aren't allowed to comment if a player plays a duff shot, or puts in a poor performance. We're allowed to comment that, say Mark Selby, has played poorly. Even if Mark Selby's poor performance is 1000 times better than anything I could do.

Am I overthinking this? <laugh>

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Wildey

Badsnookerplayer wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:That's interesting. I think that of the list only these would have/will make worthy World Champs:

Ding Junhui, Jimmy White, Judd Trump, Paul Hunter.

Any of the others would have been looked on as weak WCs in my opinion.

No such thing as Weak World Champion.


Yes some have better overall Record however for 17 days if you win it you deserve it

I agree you deserve it, but do you honestly view Graeme Dott as equally strong as (say) Hendry?

of course not Hendry has 7 wins from 9 finals and played 25 matches on the 1 table set up.

But Graeame has played in 2 more Finals than Neil Robertson, Judd Trump and Ding Junhui.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby SnookerFan

Wildey wrote:of course not Hendry has 7 wins from 9 finals and played 25 matches on the 1 table set up.

But Graeame has played in 2 more Finals than Neil Robertson, Judd Trump and Ding Junhui.


Fair point this.

Dott really did seem to leave his best form for The Crucible.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Andre147

I rate Ding as the best ever player yet to win the World Title, even above Jimmy White.

Plus the contribution Ding has given to the game will be looked upon with some distance as greater than Jimmy's. Not saying Jimmy didn't have his say, course he did, major legend of the game and huge responsible for the popularity of it, but the development of snooker from the Far East all came from Ding, so like I said with some distance we'll consider it greater than Jimmy's.

Of course, now Jimmy has no chance of a professional World Title (even though he still believes he does), but Ding now seems more confortable than ever at The Crucible, so hopefully only a matter of time.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Cloud Strife

Andre147 wrote:I rate Ding as the best ever player yet to win the World Title, even above Jimmy White.

Plus the contribution Ding has given to the game will be looked upon with some distance as greater than Jimmy's. Not saying Jimmy didn't have his say, course he did, major legend of the game and huge responsible for the popularity of it, but the development of snooker from the Far East all came from Ding, so like I said with some distance we'll consider it greater than Jimmy's.

Of course, now Jimmy has no chance of a professional World Title (even though he still believes he does), but Ding now seems more confortable than ever at The Crucible, so hopefully only a matter of time.


Never say never with Jimmy White. If only he could find a way to somehow bring his practice form onto the match table...

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Pink Ball

Andre147 wrote:I rate Ding as the best ever player yet to win the World Title, even above Jimmy White.

Plus the contribution Ding has given to the game will be looked upon with some distance as greater than Jimmy's. Not saying Jimmy didn't have his say, course he did, major legend of the game and huge responsible for the popularity of it, but the development of snooker from the Far East all came from Ding, so like I said with some distance we'll consider it greater than Jimmy's.

Of course, now Jimmy has no chance of a professional World Title (even though he still believes he does), but Ding now seems more confortable than ever at The Crucible, so hopefully only a matter of time.

I do get the feeling that next time Selby is beaten at the Crucible that the smart money would probably be on Ding. Or so I hope, at least. I think that he is the best in the world besides Selby.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby kolompar

SnookerFan wrote:Being the weakest ever World Champion is a bit like being the poorest multi-millionaire in the world.

Take Bingham.

Agree.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby SnookerFan

kolompar wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Being the weakest ever World Champion is a bit like being the poorest multi-millionaire in the world.

Take Bingham.

Agree.


It's Butthurt Barry.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Andre147

There's no such thing as "Weakest World Champion", as Wild said, if you can be the best player at The Crucible over 17 days, then you deserve to be World Champion.

However, some players have more sucess than others and thus better players at that.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby kolompar

What's this political correctness? Surely if you barely win anything else you are a weak WC. Agree on the 4 BSP said would be the only worthy winners.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Andre147

Pink Ball wrote:
Andre147 wrote:There's no such thing as "Weakest World Champion"

bullocks. Joe Johnson.


If you are talking about amount of titles won besides the World Title, then Johnson fits the bill no doubt.

And by that token, Johnson and Dott are the weakest.

What I dont like is them being called "weak", because they certainly weren't weak when theey lifted the hardest title there is to win.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Wildey

Andre147 wrote:There's no such thing as "Weakest World Champion", as Wild said, if you can be the best player at The Crucible over 17 days, then you deserve to be World Champion.

However, some players have more sucess than others and thus better players at that.

Yea you dont become the greatest just by performing in April


The real legends wins wherever and many times over


and Not just the wins either its about putting yourself in a possition to win many times


Hendry has not only won more Rankers than anyone else hes lost More Ranking finals than anyone else and Second on both lists is John Higgins.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby TheSaviour

Wildey wrote:
Andre147 wrote:There's no such thing as "Weakest World Champion", as Wild said, if you can be the best player at The Crucible over 17 days, then you deserve to be World Champion.

However, some players have more sucess than others and thus better players at that.

Yea you dont become the greatest just by performing in April


The real legends wins wherever and many times over


and Not just the wins either its about putting yourself in a possition to win many times


Hendry has not only won more Rankers than anyone else hes lost More Ranking finals than anyone else and Second on both lists is John Higgins.


A very good! Indeed.

The "trouble" when an excellent players loses a few finals is they will just keep on coming back stronger and stronger. And then there´s the new game setter. Interesting to see what Kyren can do from here. To be perfectly honest, I can´t see him having that ability. Or perhaps to be a more precise, he is all the time using his capacity to the fullness. I don´t know if anyone can agree with that view. I have some troubles to see how Ding either would get any better than what he currently is. That´s a high quality at the moment from his part, but he will be basically certainly getting mastered by someone like Mark Selby again. Or by Neil Robertson. Just to name a few. But they are to me the main suspects at the moment to raise the game again.

Re: Most successful non-World Champions

Postby Dan-cat

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Certainly not disputing that if you win it then you deserve it. All of the 'surprise' winners - Dott, Johnson, etc..... all deserved to win it without doubt.


Joe even made it back to the final the following year!