What's gone wrong for Ronnie in finals ?.

He has lost 3 major finals this season and 4 in a row after last year's Championship League. There seems to be a serious flaw at this stage. Discuss ?.

Up until the UK Championship I'd have said it was a simple case of a lack of match sharpness and poor safety play, caused in part by playing far too many exhibitions.

After the UK Championship I'd say it's just that Selby was just the better all round player on the day.

He's played people who are not afraid of him and in good form and lost on small margins. I would say not a lot has gone wrong. Another day though he would win. I think his main problem in all the finals was that he was not in top gear throughout the matches and his opponents were more so. I would be surprised if he didn't win a tourney before long.

He actually summed it up after the end of that match, saying he's missing to many balls atm and has been so since a while.

He can still make a century out of nowhere within 5-6 minutes but in the next frame he misses sitters or alternatively, messing up absolutely straight forward safety shots. And against the very big topguys you'll get punished heavily for it.

The European Masters final, he played well and lost in a deciding frame to somebody also playing well.

Didn't watch much of the CoC, but again lost to a form player.

You'd only think Ronnie was in decline if you watched the first session of the final, and nothing else all week. Earlier in the week, he was winning matches whilst barely conceding a frame.

Considering he won the Masters 10-1 in January, and the Welsh Open in February, and has made three final since I'm not sure we can consider too much having gone wrong.

Saying that, I do think these days Ronnie plays more consistently during an entire tournament when he's had time off.

He took most of a season off, and came back to win The World Championship. His Masters and Welsh win this year came after being off for a few months previously.

With all his Car Boot Sale / God told me to retire / I enjoy punditry more talk, maybe Ronnie has just got a bit bored of the tour at the moment. Maybe if he can go away, play a few exhibitions, chat up Jimmy and Colin Murray on Europort for a while. Come back and have a go at a tournament that he's well up for.

It used to be that when he got bored of snooker, he pulled out of tournaments or got booted out early doors because he wasn't really trying. Now he's stronger mentally, and can still get to a tournament final when not really enjoying himself. But if he plays a form player who is hungry for the title in the tournament, they are more likely to edge it.

Should Ronnie have a rest, and come back when he's the one hungry for success?

Nerves, not being at his peak, lack of consistency etc which all leads to him missing easy balls. It's like he can make huge breaks but then miss easy balls and not finish the frame off when he's in them. Also his positioning and cue ball control lacks consistency so all in all what he's missing is rhythm and consistency.

This is the first time in his career he's lost 4 finals in a single year IN A ROW! Champions League, European Masters, Champion of Champions and UK Champs. It's unprecedented! The older you get the more nervous you get...but I hope these losses spark something up in Ronnie.

Though I will take these losses if there's a massive pay off at the end and that's him winning the Worlds!

Championship League. Why are we even counting that?

SnookerFan wrote:Championship League. Why are we even counting that?

Apparently it counts in the Selby v O'Sullivan H2H stats! As does the Snooker Shoot-out!

SnookerFan wrote:The European Masters final, he played well and lost in a deciding frame to somebody also playing well.

Didn't watch much of the CoC, but again lost to a form player.

You'd only think Ronnie was in decline if you watched the first session of the final, and nothing else all week. Earlier in the week, he was winning matches whilst barely conceding a frame.

Considering he won the Masters 10-1 in January, and the Welsh Open in February, and has made three final since I'm not sure we can consider too much having gone wrong.

Even if he isn't playing his worst game, you have to say, its quite noticeable how this level suddenly drops in the final, compared to how the played the rounds before. He didnt play his worst final ever against Trump but compared to how he played until that point and especially in the semis against Neil it was quite some decrease.

Same in the Welsh Open. Luckily for him Neil couldnt pot a ball in that second session for whatever reason. That first session here against Selby was a shocker as well. That COC final was poor either, compared to how he played against Allen the round before. And Allen didnt play bad at all btw.

He's obviously doing something wrong at least, otherwise he wouldnt lose three finals in a row. From what I've seen, something which just had happened once before in his career.

Imo its the consistency. He doesnt seem to be capable of playing 2-3 good frames on the trot. And it costs him.

TheRocket wrote:

SnookerFan wrote:The European Masters final, he played well and lost in a deciding frame to somebody also playing well.

Didn't watch much of the CoC, but again lost to a form player.

You'd only think Ronnie was in decline if you watched the first session of the final, and nothing else all week. Earlier in the week, he was winning matches whilst barely conceding a frame.

Considering he won the Masters 10-1 in January, and the Welsh Open in February, and has made three final since I'm not sure we can consider too much having gone wrong.

Even if he isn't playing his worst game, you have to say, its quite noticeable how this level suddenly drops in the final, compared to how the played the rounds before. He didnt play his worst final ever against Trump but compared to how he played until that point and especially in the semis against Neil it was quite some decrease.

Same in the Welsh Open. Luckily for him Neil couldnt pot a ball in that second session for whatever reason. That first session here against Selby was a shocker as well. That COC final was poor either, compared to how he played against Allen the round before. And Allen didnt play bad at all btw.

He's obviously doing something wrong at least, otherwise he wouldnt lose three finals in a row. From what I've seen, something which just had happened once before in his career.

Imo its the consistency. He doesnt seem to be capable of playing 2-3 good frames on the trot. And it costs him.

Like I say, I'm not sure he's enjoying it as much the last couple of months. Whereas previously, he'd be long gone by the final if he wasn't feeling it, he's now making them despite it.

I really think he does better when he's had some time off, and comes back fully focussed on snooker.

My theory is that he is ever so lightly declining.

As an example (based on Wikipedia) I compared him to the other 2 all-time greats: Hendry & Davis
Stephen Hendry: Let's say his ultimate peak was over after he won his 7th and last WC. He still got to 25 finals after that, winning 10 of them. (40% winning ratio)
Whereas before his 7th WC he won 63 out of 94 finals. (67%)

Same with Steve Davis, if you take his last WC win as the point of declining: you see after that he won 23 out of 43 finals (53.5%), whereas before 57 out of 72 (79%)

Imo, the same is happening to ROS. Nothing to be ashamed of, as these 2 still won quite a lot of tournaments even when in decline.

(and yes, I know decline gets used to here to often, jokingly or not, but I'm serious)

Of course Ronnie is in decline, it's inevitable for someone 41 years old!

However, is this decline to the point the can't win titles anymore? of course not, he can and will win more.

Some here think Ronnie's decline means he's finished for good winning titles, when in truth he's the current Masters and Welsh Open Champion and has reached 3 Major finals this season.

He'll win more titles, just not as frequently as in the past because he's in decline, a slow but steady decline nevertheless.

He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

Andre147 wrote:Of course Ronnie is in decline, it's inevitable for someone 41 years old!

However, is this decline to the point the can't win titles anymore? of course not, he can and will win more.

Some here think Ronnie's decline means he's finished for good winning titles, when in truth he's the current Masters and Welsh Open Champion and has reached 3 Major finals this season.

He'll win more titles, just not as frequently as in the past because he's in decline, a slow but steady decline nevertheless.

I'll agree with this. He may not be at his peak, but to have been in five finals and won two in 2016 is pretty good for somebody who some people on this site think is completely finished.

If he keeps getting to finals, he'll win more ranking events.

Besides, Ronnie is a five times World Champion, a five time UK Champion and a six time Masters champion. A 28 time ranking event winner.

Even if he didn't win anything more in his career (which I think he will), I wouldn't consider it that big a deal. It's not like we've never witnessed him win anything, is it?

The way he plays: I do not see too much decline.

I think it is more a psychological blockage and it is still a problem.

But the way he scores is still crazy. The boy makes you centuries in 5 minutes. He always plays as fast as before and I think his long game is really not bad.

I find that his safety game has been progressing since the start of the season.

Robertson or ding would like to have this level of play right now.

And compared to the end of year 2014 and early 2015 there is no picture. This ronnie there is much stronger, competitive, performing.

During the period 2012-2014 many players were also scared to play him.

Lately players tend to play their best snooker when he confronts him.

The best example is the quarterfinal of the 2014 world championships against Murphy.

I just reviewed the first session and his game is really poor. Shaun should have won that 6-2 session instead it's the other way around.

The players were often disturbed and were losing their means against ronnie and yet some matches he was really beatable (cf. final welsh open 2014 against ding as well)

SnookerFan wrote:Besides, Ronnie is a five times World Champion, a five time UK Champion and a six time Masters champion. A 28 time ranking event winner.

Even if he didn't win anything more in his career (which I think he will), I wouldn't consider it that big a deal. It's not like we've never witnessed him win anything, is it?

Of course he's nothing to prove anymore but he's still an underachiever. Should have done more with his talent.

One more world title would be the perfect end.

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

The hawkins of the 2013 World Championship final would have beaten almost every player in the world.

During this final it was Ronnie that was above all. He was almost unplayable.

6 centuries and when it was not centuries it was still in one visit then that clearance came from another world in the 20th frame when it was only 11-8. This frame has completed Hawkins.

This is the best performance of Ronnie in a final at the Crucible.

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

Pink Ball wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

Neither does MasterDoctorGenius, and he claims to be a fan.

Pink Ball wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

I've never once said that. People crying that he's losing finals could possibly be that he's actually up against a decent opponent for a change.

In the European Masters he played pretty well as did Trump but Ronnie was just edged out by a player playing well who doesn't fear him If it was say Ding, Carter or Murphy in the final they would never have won that decider.

It's true that in the CoC final his form dipped somewhat from the semis but Higgins just outplayed him IMO like he has done many times before.

As for the UK final, he played bad in the first session and the damage was already done even though he played well in the second session but Selby did too, and the fact that he opened up a 7-2 advantage gave him room to move and he eventually got the job done.

sas6789 wrote:In the European Masters he played pretty well as did Trump but Ronnie was just edged out by a player playing well who doesn't fear him If it was say Ding, Carter or Murphy in the final they would never have won that decider.

I doubt it would've even gone to a decider with any of those players.

Alex0paul wrote:

Pink Ball wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

I've never once said that. People crying that he's losing finals could possibly be that he's actually up against a decent opponent for a change.

He has played most of his finals against Hendry and Higgins and has a leading record against both of them.

When O'Sullivan plays at his best it doesnt matter whos in front of him.

Alex0paul wrote:

Pink Ball wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

I've never once said that. People crying that he's losing finals could possibly be that he's actually up against a decent opponent for a change.

No, nor have you ever said anything complimentary about his game, ever.

TheRocket wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:

Pink Ball wrote:

Alex0paul wrote:He's not playing Ali Carter, Barry Hawkins, Graeme Dott in finals

You don't even think he's good at snooker though.

I've never once said that. People crying that he's losing finals could possibly be that he's actually up against a decent opponent for a change.

He has played most of his finals against Hendry and Higgins and has a leading record against both of them.

When O'Sullivan plays at his best it doesnt matter whos in front of him.

No quite true actually, Higgins and Hendry have both beat him when he's played at his best eg 1999 World semi final, 2003 British Open final and 2006 Masters Final.

sas6789 wrote:

TheRocket wrote:
He has played most of his finals against Hendry and Higgins and has a leading record against both of them.

When O'Sullivan plays at his best it doesnt matter whos in front of him.

No quite true actually, Higgins and Hendry have both beat him when he's played at his best eg 1999 World semi final, 2003 British Open final and 2006 Masters Final.

I admit. I shouldnt have said it doesnt matter because it did indeed happen. Him losing at his peak.
And I definitely agree with the 1999 semi, not with the others. That wasnt peak O'Sullivan. But in the end it doesnt change the overall context.

The match is more often than not on Ronnies racquet and not on the racquet of his opponent. Like it was with Federer or Nadal in their primes.

Of course you'll have these 1 or 2 matches every 2-3 years where your opponent just completely plays out of his skin. Playing the match of his life and even beat you at your peak like Hawkins for example has done in the World.

TheRocket wrote:

sas6789 wrote:

TheRocket wrote:
He has played most of his finals against Hendry and Higgins and has a leading record against both of them.

When O'Sullivan plays at his best it doesnt matter whos in front of him.

No quite true actually, Higgins and Hendry have both beat him when he's played at his best eg 1999 World semi final, 2003 British Open final and 2006 Masters Final.

I admit. I shouldnt have said it doesnt matter because it did indeed happen. Him losing at his peak.
And I definitely agree with the 1999 semi, not with the others. That wasnt peak O'Sullivan. But in the end it doesnt change the overall context.

The match is more often than not on Ronnies racquet and not on the racquet of his opponent. Like it was with Federer or Nadal in their primes.

Of course you'll have these 1 or 2 matches every 2-3 years where your opponent just completely plays out of his skin. Playing the match of his life and even beat you at your peak like Hawkins for example has done in the World.

Agreed O'Sullivan wasn't peak in 1999 but in that semi final he played as well as he ever has that can't be denied he also played pretty well in the semi in 2002 and Hendry beat him then also when Hendry was past his peak.

And don't tell he wasn't playing his best in the 2003 British open final and Master's 2006, he was, there was 6 centuries, 2 80 breaks and a 90 break and a couple of 60's as well between the players in that British open final.