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Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Higgins’ peak form is better than Ding’s or Robbo’s.

Scoring alone Robbo has the edge but overall game Higgins’ peak is better.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:Higgins’ peak form is better than Ding’s or Robbo’s.

Scoring alone Robbo has the edge but overall game Higgins’ peak is better.

Nah, I don't buy that.
Higgins has always been a poor long potter by ATG standards. Also, I didn't take the mental part of the game into consideration.
Ding has better cueball control and is a better scorer.
Robbo is also a way better scorer.
Higgins edges them both in the safety and tactical department, but not by much.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Iranu wrote:Higgins’ peak form is better than Ding’s or Robbo’s.

Scoring alone Robbo has the edge but overall game Higgins’ peak is better.

Nah, I don't buy that.
Higgins has always been a poor long potter by ATG standards. Also, I didn't take the mental part of the game into consideration.
Ding has better cueball control and is a better scorer.
Robbo is also a way better scorer.
Higgins edges them both in the safety and tactical department, but not by much.

You’re seriously underestimating Higgins’ scoring. The guy made 30 centuries last season and 32 the year before despite being in pretty much the worst form of his life for the last two years or so. If he was in his peak there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t have got something close to Robbo’s 72 last season. Robbo’s a fabulous scorer and he’s definitely better than Higgins but not way better.

Ding is not a better scorer than peak Higgins. He’s excellent but not better than Higgins. A better breakbuilder maybe in terms of positional play etc. Not a better scorer. Only twice has Ding made over 40 centuries in a season.

I do agree that Higgins’ long potting is his clear weakness. It’s way too inconsistent. Although if we’re discussing peaks we should be talking about long potting at their best. There have been times when Higgins’ long potting has been scarily good (though it hasn’t happened for a long time). Plus, Higgins’ peak safety would make Robbo’s long potting way less useful.

Higgins is far better than both Ding or Robbo in safety. Robbo’s safety game isn’t that good at all when we’re talking about the best players ever. I’d only have him above Hendry and maybe White (not sure how good White was at safety really.) Ding’s is good, particularly in terms of laying snookers, but not at peak Higgins level. Higgins is Davis/Selby level good at safety/tactics.

I wasn’t taking the mental side into account either because let’s face it Robbo and Ding don’t come close rofl

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

have to say that I changed my opinion on this peak level stuff a while ago. Reality is, peak level is very hard to define anyway. Anyone in the Top64 can probably play to an exceptionally high level on their day.

Gary Wilson made 4 centuries on the trot at the UK followed by losing to Nigel Bond the match after that. And thats the difference between topplayer and non topplayer. The consistency and the ability to not drop below a certain level.

Ronnies peak level is extremely high but its his incredible scoring power, even on average/bad days which is the reason for his success.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

TheRocket wrote:have to say that I changed my opinion on this peak level stuff a while ago. Reality is, peak level is very hard to define anyway. Anyone in the Top64 can probably play to an exceptionally high level on their day.

Gary Wilson made 4 centuries on the trot at the UK followed by losing to Nigel Bond the match after that. And thats the difference between topplayer and non topplayer. The consistency and the ability to not drop below a certain level.

Ronnies peak level is extremely high but its his incredible scoring power, even on average/bad days which is the reason for his success.

This is true, the reality is peak vs peak would just be both players knocking in a long one and clearing the table every time.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Acé

Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater Robertson is literally a watered down/discount/charity shop/ lesser clone of Trump but with overthinking problems
Last edited by Acé on 05 Nov 2020, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater

He’s above Judd at present because of his extra UK.

I’ll be amazed if Judd doesn’t overtake him by the end of the season.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Acé

Iranu wrote:
Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater

He’s above Judd at present because of his extra UK.

I’ll be amazed if Judd doesn’t overtake him by the end of the season.


And? ROS has one less world title than Hendry but like 75% of the snooker fanbase had ROS over Hendry at just 5 world titles so 1 UK title as a deficit is unbelievably unfair to Trump

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater Robertson is literally a watered down/discount/charity shop/ lesser clone of Trump but with overthinking problems

Lol, Robbo bit ahead right now on merit, but calm down and relax, we all know Judd will be overtaking most on those lists over the next few years if he carries on the way he is.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Acé

Ck147 wrote:
Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater Robertson is literally a watered down/discount/charity shop/ lesser clone of Trump but with overthinking problems

Lol, Robbo bit ahead right now on merit, but calm down and relax, we all know Judd will be overtaking most on those lists over the next few years if he carries on the way he is.


It is not about that why is Robertson ahead of Trump anyway? Because of 1 extra UK? By those standards we might as well change the whole list

Robertson never had a dominating season like some of the greats have had either. Ronnie, Hendry, Higgins, Davis, Williams, Selby, Trump all had at least one great season Robertson never had a commanding season, Judd has that should be in his favour + higher peak form

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Acé

Judd also won 2 TC titles in the same season and has dominated the game for the last 2 years, Robertson has never come close to it.

1 extra UK title isn't no way enough to cover Robertson's faults

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

Acé wrote:
Ck147 wrote:
Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater Robertson is literally a watered down/discount/charity shop/ lesser clone of Trump but with overthinking problems

Lol, Robbo bit ahead right now on merit, but calm down and relax, we all know Judd will be overtaking most on those lists over the next few years if he carries on the way he is.


It is not about that why is Robertson ahead of Trump anyway? Because of 1 extra UK? By those standards we might as well change the whole list

Robertson never had a dominating season like some of the greats have had either. Ronnie, Hendry, Higgins, Davis, Williams, Selby, Trump all had at least one great season Robertson never had a commanding season, Judd has that should be in his favour + higher peak form

Like I said, you need to relax, it will come. Getting more than 103 centuries in a season will definitely help his cause :)

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Acé wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Acé wrote:Anyone who has Robertson over Trump is a hater

He’s above Judd at present because of his extra UK.

I’ll be amazed if Judd doesn’t overtake him by the end of the season.


And? ROS has one less world title than Hendry but like 75% of the snooker fanbase had ROS over Hendry at just 5 world titles so 1 UK title as a deficit is unbelievably unfair to Trump

That’s actually a good point regarding Ronnie and Hendry. But don’t forget Ronnie’s ahead of Hendry in other stats as well (rankers, centuries, maxis etc). Judd’s not ahead of Robbo yet on anything I can think of (although I’m 99% sure he’ll overtake Robbo’s century haul this season.) I suppose his century per frame rate is better, actually.

But I’d say the fact that 33% of Judd's ranking titles came in one season counts against him AT THE MOMENT. It could well be a ‘fluke’ season like Ding’s 5 ranker season.

I mean, it won’t be, obviously. I think by next season, possibly as soon as 2021, Judd will have overtaken Robbo.

I’d also add “half a point” to Robbo for his CoC victory because I think it is currently the de facto 4th major and he also beat Judd to win it. Small margin but still.

But we need to make this call as things stand currently, and Judd is a few percentage points behind Robbo as things stand today.

As CK says, relax. Judd will indisputably end up the better player, probably in the next 6 months.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

Most people rate ROS as the GOAT but its fair to say Ronnie vs Hendry will always divide the fanbase and be a toss-up unless Ronnie wins that 7th World title. For me he is already the Goat because he beats Hendry in the all the other records but that 7th World title would put the debate to bed for good.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

Good post Iranu, agree next 6-12 months will probably see Judd go above Robbo, obviously depending on how they both do this season. Hoping they meet in the CoC final on Sunday...bound to be a good match.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

Okay, I think the time has come to recognise that Trump is a greater player than Robertson. Now the really hard work begins, and it's going to require some world titles.

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Judd Trump
9. Neil Robertson
10. Alex Higgins
11. Ding Junhui
12. Peter Ebdon
13. Jimmy White
14. John Parrott
15. John Spencer
16. Shaun Murphy
17. Ken Doherty
18. Cliff Thorburn
19. Terry Griffiths
20. Stuart Bingham

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

eraserhead wrote:What would it take for you to put him above Selby PB?

Good question. I think it will be maybe two years before he does that. He can do it in less time, but it'll take a lengthy enough continuation of his fantastic form since 2018.

He'll certainly need another world title.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

Iranu wrote:Would he have to do anything different to get ahead of Williams than he would Selby?

Not massively, to be honest. The gap from fifth to seventh is quite thin. Williams' achievements given that his peak coincided with Higgins, Hendry and O'Sullivan gives him a fair boost though.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

D4P wrote:Is there anything Hendry could do during his comeback to move ahead of Ronnie...?

Win a world title or 2 of the other majors (Masters, UK), but the chances of that happening are one in a million, slim to none.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Reg Varney

A pretty solid list PB.

Personally I'd have Alex Higgins up slightly and I think Griffiths is quite a bit lower than he should be, but apart from that, not much to grumble about.