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Journeymen

Postby SteveJJ

It always interests me to hear people's definitions of journeymen - although this sometimes still confuses me.

So, I have a few questions!

Obviously, the broadest definition of a journeyman is a player who pootles along in the mid to low ranking positions, generally doing enough to stay on the tour but not threatening qualifying for/winning big events.

Based on that, here are my questions.

1. How many seasons as a pro does it take to earn the journeyman label? For example, the likes of Lawler have been a pro for years and have this tag. I wondered whether it'd be too soon for the likes of Wenbo to be classed as a journeyman.

2. Once a journeyman, always a journeyman? I'm baffled that people still call Stuart Bingham a journeyman. Admittedly, it might have been apt for a long time but over the past couple of seasons he's won a mid ranking event and a couple of smaller ones and got to the last 8 of a number of tournaments. He's got himself into top 10 (will get up to 9th if he wins a match at the weekend) and of course won the PL. I saw him on the night he won 2 matches 6-0 and it was up there with some of the best snooker I've seen. If you consider him to still be a journeyman, is there anything he can do to change your mind?

3. Is journeyman sometimes used as a perjorative term to belittle a player you don't particularly like? Either personally or their style of play rather than being based on objective criteria?

4. Is journeyman ever used to describe a mid ranking player who plays attractive snooker? For example, Drago - or is it only to be used for grinders/inconsistent break builders.

I'll stop waffling now!

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

I think some people use the term 'journeyman' as a shortened form of the term 'player I don't like'.

Re: Journeymen

Postby vodkadiet

A Journeyman is a player who has been around for a while, not neccessarily an age, who never really goes up or down the rankings significantly, and rarely springs a surprise in terms of beating big names, and never at the biggets events.

Today's ultimate journeyman would be Jamie Burnett.

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

Jewell wrote:Didn't Burnett beat Selby at one of chinese events earlier this season though?

He also reached the final somewhere in china too, if I remember correctly.


He reached the 2010 Shanghai Masters.

Also, he made a 148 once, if that counts for anything.

Re: Journeymen

Postby vodkadiet

Jewell wrote:Didn't Burnett beat Selby at one of chinese events earlier this season though?

He also reached the final somewhere in china too, if I remember correctly.


Okay, Burnett was a bad example. Barry Pinches is a better example, even though he won a PTC last season.

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

vodkadiet wrote:Okay, Burnett was a bad example. Barry Pinches is a better example, even though he won a PTC last season.


Nowadays, it's probably more difficult than you think of somebody who has never done ANYTHING in the game. Even if you can think of somebody who has never won anything, there'll be a ranker they've had a decent run in somewhere in their career. Or at the very least a couple of worthy PTC runs.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Wildey

vodkadiet wrote:A Journeyman is a player who has been around for a while, not neccessarily an age, who never really goes up or down the rankings significantly, and rarely springs a surprise in terms of beating big names, and never at the biggets events.

Today's ultimate journeyman would be Jamie Burnett.

yes but the name journeyman has been used very lately to describe Stuart Bingham and Mark Davis who are now top 16 players

Mark Davis in particular turned pro in 1991 and in his 22nd season as a pro reaches the top 16 for the first time.

so has Mark Davis now lifted above the tag Journeyman ?

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

Wild WC wrote:yes but the name journeyman has been used very lately to describe Stuart Bingham and Mark Davis who are now top 16 players

Mark Davis in particular turned pro in 1991 and in his 22nd season as a pro reaches the top 16 for the first time.

so has Mark Davis now lifted above the tag Journeyman ?


Yes.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Casey

Lawler and Dunne are perfect examples of journeymen.

Davis has done enough to lift that tag - put it this way, if Davis is a journeyman then so is Drago.

Re: Journeymen

Postby vodkadiet

Casey wrote:Lawler and Dunne are perfect examples of journeymen.

Davis has done enough to lift that tag - put it this way, if Davis is a journeyman then so is Drago.


Peter Lines must be added to the list.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Roland

In that case what about Daniel Wells? Always bouncing on and off tour, finishes bottom of the rankings etc.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:In that case what about Daniel Wells? Always bouncing on and off tour, finishes bottom of the rankings etc.

you could even argue that Robbo and murphy was journeymen at one point then something clicked.

Re: Journeymen

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

Drago can't count as a journeyman. He has too much of a personality and his game has more flair to it than most players. A proper journeyman has to be someone who is incredibly dull and mostly someone who is a grinder. To be a true journeyman you need to be on the tour for a long time with no more than one or two decent runs and they can't be at the World or UK. You can't have any charisma and your style of play should be fairly negative and any break building you do should be robot like without any flair. Many top players have one or two of those things but you need all three to be a journeyman. Ebdon is a player who can be negative but he's an interesting character and his achievements are obviously far beyond 99% of players.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Wildey

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:Drago can't count as a journeyman. He has too much of a personality and his game has more flair to it than most players. A proper journeyman has to be someone who is incredibly dull and mostly someone who is a grinder. To be a true journeyman you need to be on the tour for a long time with no more than one or two decent runs and they can't be at the World or UK. You can't have any charisma and your style of play should be fairly negative and any break building you do should be robot like without any flair. Many players have one or two of those things but you need all three. Ebdon can be negative but he's an interesting character and his achievements are obviously far beyond 99% of players.

no thats not the definition of a journeyman

journey in journeyman means someone who's on tour playing in events and gets nowhere.

style of play is nothing to do with it...

as snookerfan said some people see the tag journeyman to call players they dont like well that's wrong.

Drago has reached 10 in the ranking earned over a million and reached a Ranking final so realistically he cant be a journeyman or can he ?

Re: Journeymen

Postby Witz78

Dragos a journeyman now in effect but to be a true journeyman you need to have never been a top player and though Drago never got the results his talent should have earned, he was at a top level in the game for a good few years, plus he has flair an exciting characteristics whereas your standard journeyman is dull as ditchwater usually.

Rory, Lines, Lawler, Campebell, Dunn, Jogia, Burden among the prime candidates for me.

Re: Journeymen

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

Wild WC wrote:no thats not the definition of a journeyman

journey in journeyman means someone who's on tour playing in events and gets nowhere.

style of play is nothing to do with it...


Style of play isn't the main part of it but it's a small part of it. Journeyman status is mostly down to achievement but having a negative or dull style of play can push a borderline case into a journeyman.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Wildey

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:
Wild WC wrote:no thats not the definition of a journeyman

journey in journeyman means someone who's on tour playing in events and gets nowhere.

style of play is nothing to do with it...


Style of play isn't the main part of it but it's a small part of it. Journeyman status is mostly down to achievement but having a negative or dull style of play can push a borderline case into a journeyman.

witz named Alfie burden if he was a borderline case how would playing fast maybe reckless and lose mean he isn't a journeyman ?

Re: Journeymen

Postby Smart

vodkadiet wrote:
Jewell wrote:Didn't Burnett beat Selby at one of chinese events earlier this season though?

He also reached the final somewhere in china too, if I remember correctly.


Okay, Burnett was a bad example. Barry Pinches is a better example, even though he won a PTC last season.


Burnett was a bad example for sure, missed blacks excepted, he is actually a better than average player. I would also say that the PTCs further cloud the issue of who is and is not a journeyman. I mean for ages I would of said MCD was a journeyman, but he has (aided by the PTCs) improved and now is a bit more than a journeyman, not much but he is out of the journeyman bracket imo.

Wenny is a classic journeyman material imo, he will bob around and not win anything - he will occasionally qualify but he will not beat many top seeds in R1 at the venue. :wave:

Re: Journeymen

Postby Alex0paul

Gerard Greene, Mike Dunn, Matt Selt, Jimmy Robertson, Peter Lines, Rory Mcleod, Paul Davison, Simon Bedford are the biggest on tour for me at the moment.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Smart

Alex0paul wrote:Gerard Greene, Mike Dunn, Matt Selt, Jimmy Robertson, Peter Lines, Rory Mcleod, Paul Davison, Simon Bedford are the biggest on tour for me at the moment.


I think its time to name a few Chinese:

Liang Wenbo
Liu Song
Liu Chuang

3 more journeyman from China :wave:

Re: Journeymen

Postby Casey

Alex0paul wrote:Gerard Greene, Mike Dunn, Matt Selt, Jimmy Robertson, Peter Lines, Rory Mcleod, Paul Davison, Simon Bedford are the biggest on tour for me at the moment.


Yes good list, I would add -

Gilbert, Baird, Robbie Williams, Maflin, Wallace etc.

There could also be a case made for Drago, Hicks and Hann as well.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Witz78

Casey wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:Gerard Greene, Mike Dunn, Matt Selt, Jimmy Robertson, Peter Lines, Rory Mcleod, Paul Davison, Simon Bedford are the biggest on tour for me at the moment.


Yes good list, I would add -

Gilbert, Baird, Robbie Williams, Maflin, Wallace etc.

There could also be a case made for Drago, Hicks and Hann as well.


how can you call Hann a journeyman <doh>

was a rising star and in the top 16 plus he was a total character

journeymen are boring

he was stopped in his prime by an immoral ban.

Even Monique said at York that all the players were jealous of Hann cos while they potted balls he shagged birds :happy:

Hann and Drago at least achieved decent heights during their peaks, fair enough their careers have drifted aimlessly to an extent lately but in that case do we ignore the previous exploits of Jimmy and Davis and class them as journeymen too cos they happen to be in the 40-50 ranking bracket now <doh>

The DRIFTWOOD as Ben Harrison called it, is the true definition of journeymen, players who float about the ranking going nowhere. A lot of the ones AlexOpaul said are perfect examples.

Chuang and Wenbo are too young to be put in that category right now.

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

Smart wrote:I class Wenny and Chuang as journeymen, remember I just won the UK CHamps prediction contest - so I am know a thing or 2 about snooker. :wave:


rofl rofl rofl

Smart. :bowdown:

Re: Journeymen

Postby Monique

The way this thread goes we'll soon have to deal with the concept of journeykid ...

Re: Journeymen

Postby SnookerFan

Gerard Greene was a top bloke when I met him. :D

Re: Journeymen

Postby vodkadiet

Gerard Greene is very much a journeyman.

I think you need to be at least 30 to become a journeyman.

Mark Davis has had an 'Indian Summer' in terms of his late flourishing but he is most probably an exception and if a player above 30 now makes a major breakthrough then it would be exceptional.

If a player is very dedicated he can get through to a few PTC semis/finals and break into the elite. Many players excel when there isn't the intrusive pressure of a major event.

Re: Journeymen

Postby Witz78

Bingo was a journeyman until a season or 2 ago, like Mavis, hes also benefitted from Hearns busy tour calendar