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Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Casey

Sonny wrote:Well that's up to him but I know he's concerned about his ranking and his performance overall in the PTCs says he is a top 4 player still. He is still paying for 2010/11. If he applies himself in the events he chooses to enter from this point then it's a no brainer he'll rise into the safety zone. I don't share this concern for him dropping out the 16 because I know he'll be back where he belongs before too long. It's not like he's going to drop off tour like the way some of you lot are making out.


He would get back Sonny, however he is now 35 and would have very few major winning days left. he can't really afford to be drawing the likes of Higgins, Selby, Trump and Robbo in the first round of tournaments.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Roland

I'm sure they wouldn't want to draw him in round 1 more than he wouldn't want to draw them.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Casey

Sonny wrote:I'm sure they wouldn't want to draw him in round 1 more than he wouldn't want to draw them.


They won't want to draw him, but he would still be second favourite against those type of players. How many more years has he got left to challenge for majors? He can't afford to be going out in first rounds.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Roland

Doom merchant!

Let's see what happens here. I'm willing to bet that by the end of 2012 he will be back in the top 12.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby John From London Town

I think they're a lot of good points being made here. If he don't play in all the ranking events then how can he stay in the Top 16 when all the other Top 20 odd players do?
They're are far to many players about now & certainly, as some of them are already mentioned below, certainly don't fear playing him anymore. If anything, its adverse now because they know they'll get a major buzz if they beat the most talented player ever to pick up a cue.
The bottom line is, is that it is all down to him whether he stays in the Top 16 or not.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Roland

Well currently he's 3-0 down to Higginson in the German Masters. Of course my statement above relies on him performing to his usual high standard. If he plays rubbish and loses, then he'll plummet.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

13 Matthew Stevens 43715
14 Stephen Lee 42575
15 Stuart Bingham 42315
16 Ricky Walden 41630
------------------------------
17 Mark Davis 40875
18 Ronnie O’Sullivan 39940

LATEST RANKINGS after todays games

Ronnie STILL got it all to do with 1,690 points between him and 16th place man Walden

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby SnookerAnalyst

I've actually modelled Ronnie as a slight favourite (55%) following his comeback and Walden's (45%) defeat this evening. Realistically you'd think he at least has to beat Joe Perry tomorrow to build up some momentum, although on paper he'd still have a chance even if he loses.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

can you explain how you model this exactly?

also how is Ronnie 55% and Perry 45%, that alludes to it being solely a 2 horse race between them pair

assuming Ronnie wins tomorrow but then loses to Jono in the quarters which is sadly probable then thats another 600 points meaning hed then be 1090 points still behind Walden

likeliehood is Walden will win his Welsh qualifier so will gain an extra 825 points putting 1915 points between himself and Ronnie meaning Ronnie would need a semi in Wales at least, even if he gets past Perry tomorrow.

Id disagree with your percentages, Ronnie still the outsider are far as im concerned.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Wildey

Snooker Overdrive wrote:@SnookerAnalyst:

I'm familiar with operations research, how do you estimate that Ronnie will stay 55% in the top 16 and so on?

Good Question.

suerly player in possition has the advantage not someone playing catch up.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby SnookerAnalyst

The general method is Monte Carlo Simulation. Basically I've set up a spreadsheet which allows me to simulate the results of the German Masters & Welsh Open and model the impact on the rankings. By simulating this a number of times (e.g. 10,000) you hope to get a reasonable approximation to the true probability.

The main input is an estimate of the probability that one player will beat another. For this I've used my Snooker Ratings (http://www.snookeranalyst.com/current-ratings/). For example, Ronnie has a rating of 1,099 while Joe Perry has a rating of 749. You would therefore expect Ronnie to win 1,099 / (1,099 + 749) = 59% of frames won between the two. Making an assumption that the result of each frame is independent of one another (which probably isn't true, but is a reasonable simplification) then this equates to Ronnie winning 72% of "best of 9 frame" matches that they play.

On that basis you would certainly expect him to beat Perry and he has a reasonable chance of progressing further in the German Masters. Walden's rating is lower at 783 and given that he also has to play a qualifying match, you would expect (on average) Ronnie to collect more points than him in the Welsh Open.

The main question around this analysis is how accurate the ratings (based on historical results) are at predicting the results of specific matches in the future. Ronnie certainly looks over-rated given his lack of form in full ranking events over the last couple of years, although his form in the PTC events was very good. That said, his head to head record against Perry shows that he has won 61% of frames (49 out of 80) and 86% of matches over different lengths (6 out of 7).

Ultimately the 55% estimate is fairly meaningless because in real life it's down to the results on the day, but at least it provides a reasonable indication of how things might play out if each player performs close to their typical level of play.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby kostasmad

Snooker Analyst, do you want to send you my project (1,2 million pounds) and you can let me know how succesful would it be based on my risk budget and use of resources? I ll give you half of my bonus if you are correct... :-D

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

14 Stephen Lee 43175
15 Stuart Bingham 42315
16 Ricky Walden 41630
-----------------------------------------------
17 Mark Davis 40875
18 Ronnie O’Sullivan 40540

after another win today things looking slightly rosier for Ronnie though hes still 1,090 points off 16th place.

A win tonight over Stevens would bag him an extra 700 points and suddenly put him within touching distance of Walden again after it all seeming a lost cause at 0-4 down to Higginson.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby SnookerAnalyst

Ronnie's chances up to 82% following his wins and defeats for players like Robertson, Selby & Trump. Bingham is now down to 76% given O'Sullivan's resurgence, while Walden is at 36%.

One word of caution - regardless of how well he does over the weekend, a 1st round defeat at the Welsh Open could still cost him. It wouldn't be the first time that a player has put in a strong performance one week, only to go crashing out early on in the next event. I can see Walden making it through a couple of rounds in Wales as well.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

After Lees win tonight, its effectively 2 into 4 now for 15th and 16th places. (if we can even class Mavis as a viable contender given hes a bigger bottler than Stevens)

15 Stuart Bingham 42315
16 Ricky Walden 41630
-----------------------------------------------
17 Ronnie O'Sullivan 41240
18 Mark Davis 40875

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Andre147

SnookerAnalyst wrote:Ronnie's chances up to 82% following his wins and defeats for players like Robertson, Selby & Trump. Bingham is now down to 76% given O'Sullivan's resurgence, while Walden is at 36%.

One word of caution - regardless of how well he does over the weekend, a 1st round defeat at the Welsh Open could still cost him. It wouldn't be the first time that a player has put in a strong performance one week, only to go crashing out early on in the next event. I can see Walden making it through a couple of rounds in Wales as well.


True that Snooker Analyst, and given the fact that Ronnie might well face Marco Fu in the first round of the Welsh Open, he could easily crash out in there.... Fu has a pretty good record against him, and he is a player capable of beating anyone in the game, cant really understand why he dropped out of the top 16.... he deserves to be there, bar some poor results he has had recently...still, he will definitely fancy his chances of beating Ronnie if he comes through the qualifiers... and that would drasticily reduce Ronnie´s chances of staying in the top 16 as you rightly said there...

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Andre147 wrote:
SnookerAnalyst wrote:Ronnie's chances up to 82% following his wins and defeats for players like Robertson, Selby & Trump. Bingham is now down to 76% given O'Sullivan's resurgence, while Walden is at 36%.

One word of caution - regardless of how well he does over the weekend, a 1st round defeat at the Welsh Open could still cost him. It wouldn't be the first time that a player has put in a strong performance one week, only to go crashing out early on in the next event. I can see Walden making it through a couple of rounds in Wales as well.


True that Snooker Analyst, and given the fact that Ronnie might well face Marco Fu in the first round of the Welsh Open, he could easily crash out in there.... Fu has a pretty good record against him, and he is a player capable of beating anyone in the game, cant really understand why he dropped out of the top 16.... he deserves to be there, bar some poor results he has had recently...still, he will definitely fancy his chances of beating Ronnie if he comes through the qualifiers... and that would drasticily reduce Ronnie´s chances of staying in the top 16 as you rightly said there...


Fu hasn't had just some bad results recently, he is struggling for a couple of years now and I'm afraid that his best days are over.

He is still dangerous, he showed it in this years Uk but he isn't that big of a threat anymore.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby kostasmad

I think the 1st round of the Welsh Open will be HUGE. Fu is one of the two players (Higgins is the other) that have Ronnies number and Walden will face Carter that has seen better days....Tough to call...

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Casey

It won't matter guys because Ronnie will win this week. That's not me trying to jinx him, its just logic. Murphy and MaGuire always fold like a pack of cards against him.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

Ronnie now provisionally inside top 16 again after reaching the Final.

15 Stuart Bingham 42315
16 Ronnie O'Sullivan 42040
-----------------------------------
17 Ricky Walden 41630
18 Mark Davis 40875

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

Ronnie now 1,410 points clear of the danger zone so even if he loses his Welsh Opener, Walden would have to reach the quarter to go above him and Mark Davis would have to reach the semis.

So it would now seem, barring a miracle, Ronnie has qualified for the Crucible.

14 Stephen Lee 43875
15 Ronnie O’Sullivan 43040
16 Stuart Bingham 42315
-----------------------------------
17 Ricky Walden 41630
18 Mark Davis 40875

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Witz78

if he loses his round 1 game and Bingo Wings wins his then hes 16th unless of course the unthinkable happens and Walden reaches QF or Mavis reaches semis.

if he wins his round 1 game then Bingo would need to reach the semis to go above him

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Andre147

Witz78 wrote:if he loses his round 1 game and Bingo Wings wins his then hes 16th unless of course the unthinkable happens and Walden reaches QF or Mavis reaches semis.

if he wins his round 1 game then Bingo would need to reach the semis to go above him


Hope I´m wrong, but even with this title win, Ronnie might lose in the 1st round of the Welsh because Marco Fu is likely to be his opponent... he has a pretty good record against him, and it certainly wouldn´t be the first time a player loses in the 1st round of a ranker after having won a title previously....

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby gallantrabbit

I think what many of you on this thread forgot was that we're talking about a snooker genius here. He still has that capability to turn it on almost like a tap. This week was a great example. When Davis, Hendry or White were dropping out the top echelon you would never have felt that at 0-4 against Higginson in the first round they could win the whole event. With Ronnie you just never know. This isn't a Ronnieite jumping on the bandwagon after he's won his first decent sized event in a couple of years. Just someone who's been watching him play since he was about 11 and who knew from the start that he would rival Hendry and all the other greats. As for no-one fearing Ronnie anymore...anyone who says this doesn't know snooker. Apart from Trump, Higgins and Robertson no-one is feared more. Ask pair of jellies Dale and Murphy after last year's worlds...

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Wildey

he got inspired by the 4-0 reversal against higginson but lets not forget it was not flawless consistantly even last night Mags let him off but it does look like his top 16 safe now.

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby The Cueist

Wild wrote:he got inspired by the 4-0 reversal against higginson but lets not forget it was not flawless consistantly even last night Mags let him off but it does look like his top 16 safe now.


By a fraction,Not intentionally mate.

Ron will go from strength to strength imo,Monkey off his back i rek. :-)

Re: Will Ronnie stay in the Top 16?

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Let's take a look at the rankings:

1 Mark Selby 70645
2 Mark J Williams 65720
3 Judd Trump 59185
4 Neil Robertson 58640
5 Shaun Murphy 57285
6 John Higgins 55780
7 Stephen Maguire 51160
8 Graeme Dott 50705
9 Ding Junhui 49440
10 Mark Allen 48365
11 Martin Gould 46320
12 Ali Carter 45600
13 Matthew Stevens 44315
14 Stephen Lee 43875
15 Ronnie O’Sullivan 43040
16 Stuart Bingham 42315
17 Ricky Walden 41630
18 Mark Davis 40875

This is the seeding in the World Championship in the last 16 (if the seeds win):

1 John Higgins v 16 - Ronnie doesn't want to finish 16.
2 Mark Selby v 15 - Ronnie doesn't want to finish 15.
3 Mark Williams v 14 - this would be the best outcome
4/5 Trump/Robertson/Murphy v 13/12 Ronnie doesn't want to finish 13. or 12. unless he's due to play Murphy in the last 16

The conclusion: I know that this isn't easy but somehow Ronnie has to finish 14. after the Welsh Open.