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Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Witz78 wrote:Regardless of travel etc, i dont believe in doubling the 79 days total time Selby spent involved in tournaments, one bit either on that count of travelling to and from events.

If i can be fussed ill do it but based on top tennis and top golfers like Nadal, Djokovic, McIllroy etc and i think then youll see what a proper top sportsman puts in in terms of days per year actually involved in competitive action. And these guys air miles clocked up for the year will put Alan Whicker to shame. The snooker players are in dreamworld if they think theyve got it hard.


So you know better than Janie who actually manages players, has experience with organising and running tournaments and was a player herself in her day? Wow! You're amazing! :dizzy:

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby gallantrabbit

I think in this whole argument there is something we're missing here.
These guys are not employees of a company. They are self employed and they are guaranteed no salary, (or only a little in the top 16-32 case). The WSA is giving them the opportunity to speculate to accumulate, ie pay their entrance fees, travel expenses etc in the hope of winning matches and prize money.
If they don't win matches they don't win money.
Monique is a photographer. I assume she is self employed and not anyone's employee. If she doesn't win contracts she doesn't earn money. Who's going to pay her if she doesn't win the contracts? The European photographer's union? No. No-one.
Monique (I'm not picking on you Monique promise) used the example of Ben Woolaston earlier, that he won 10k from his PTC win, but that wouldn't cover the expenses of the 12 events throughout the year, ((she did by the way neglect to mention that Ben is guaranteed in the finals so more prize money there.) I assume that Ben is paying his own exes for the season. Why? Because apart from this recent win he's done next to nothing in snooker so far. Does he not have a manager or sponsor to help him with these expenses? Probably not yet. It takes time and results.
So the long and the short of it is that this kid needs to work not just on his game, but his image/personality/networking too. Tough life huh?

Now let's go back to Monique. Is she getting photography work from the WSA and others because she's the best European sports/snooker photographer that ever was? No, although she's clearly a good photographer. Monique has been clever. She's done her networking, got to know players/officials and the like, even come on forums like this, not just because she likes talking about snooker, but because she knows about networking and she knows the value of contacts.
Most snooker players know nothing about self promotion. If they have a twitter account it's to say buck a lot, announce their retirement or talk about big brother...Apart from guys who have their heads screwed on like Mark Selby and Shaun Murphy. These guys know about marketing. They understand that no-one owes them a living. And these guys have arrived.
Snooker players cannot rely just on prize money to make serious money. What can Ben do? He can get to know the names, Ronnies, Jimmys, Selbys to help him get more exhibitions. He can get his own website. He can go after local sponsorship. He can promote himself. He can work on his career. It's what all self employed do. I should know.. How many times have I spent hours in the traffic, a fortune on gas and parking and not even had a reply to my proposal? You can equate that to snooker players entering tourneys and going out in the first round...
If you're a good professional, and Monique clearly is, you get rewards for your hard work. Over to you Ben, Mike Dunn etc etc etc

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

Just had a look at the tennis tour for 2011

there were 69 main tournaments on the ATP tour held in every corner of the globe with prize money no lower than around £300k at the very smallest events to crazy prize funds like £14 million at Wimbledon.

Tennis like snooker is a minority sport in terms of people who play it and has a perception of snobby and stuffy, yet interest is huge due to the excitment of the action. Snooker isnt as global so obviously cant expect to reach these levels, but a similar model of differing scales of tournaments held every week around the globe should be the vision.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

They're doing a job that probably 90%+ of the world's population would love to do, if they can't accept the fact that there's travelling and other expensese that go with it then they should get out and give it to players who are actually hungry to achieve and progress and not take the fact that things are gona be handed on a silver platter to them.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

Witz78 wrote:Just had a look at the tennis tour for 2011

there were 69 main tournaments on the ATP tour held in every corner of the globe with prize money no lower than around £300k at the very smallest events to crazy prize funds like £14 million at Wimbledon.

Tennis like snooker is a minority sport in terms of people who play it and has a perception of snobby and stuffy, yet interest is huge due to the excitment of the action. Snooker isnt as global so obviously cant expect to reach these levels, but a similar model of differing scales of tournaments held every week around the globe should be the vision.

Not to mention the Challengers and futures and satellite tours <ok>

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Wildey

mon

thats the problem Snooker people see it from how snooker was played and on the scale it was played...... times are changing Sport has changed over the last 20 years but snooker has stayed still we need to somehow atempt to catch up. witz is right this season traveling is nothing like it is on the Tennis or Golf tours ....theres been rumbelings regarding Tennis to much traveling or something..... even if they cut that back say 20% it would still be more traveling than snooker.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

Monique wrote:
Witz78 wrote:Regardless of travel etc, i dont believe in doubling the 79 days total time Selby spent involved in tournaments, one bit either on that count of travelling to and from events.

If i can be fussed ill do it but based on top tennis and top golfers like Nadal, Djokovic, McIllroy etc and i think then youll see what a proper top sportsman puts in in terms of days per year actually involved in competitive action. And these guys air miles clocked up for the year will put Alan Whicker to shame. The snooker players are in dreamworld if they think theyve got it hard.


So you know better than Janie who actually manages players, has experience with organising and running tournaments and was a player herself in her day? Wow! You're amazing! :dizzy:


at the end of the day for all these 280, 200, 150 whatever it is days that the players are not at tournaments or travelling etc then surely its better that there are then other events on so the calendars even fuller.

the less time the players have to practice the better surely?

LETS PUT IT THIS WAY

If the players really practice as much as you said they do in their spare time between events

then how come there all up in arms about the busier calendar?

after all in the old Rodney Walker days werent they practicing solid for 2 months between every event, so whats the difference?

ah yeh they can now get paid and get competitive match practice too instead of leading a nomadic existence in a snooker hall for weeks on end between events.

The deadwood, worsky, lazy and journeymen will get found out with Hearns new tour proposals.

Lets flood the tour with a load of Asian robots who eat, live and breathe snooker 24/7. Theyll appreciate the new opportunities more than these ungrateful bunch of humanoids

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Wildey

theres different arguaments here

TRAVELING is different to TRAVELING EXPENSES

so on this thread it doesent matter how traveling costs because Traveling is Traveling you dont get there a different route if Tournaments pay out more cash.

in 2011 Sport = Traveling a lot..

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Part of the problem gallant is that they start at a very young age and more often than not, if successful, attract all the wrong flock around them. Most of them just want to play and have no commercial nous whatsoever. This is also something Dave Hendon was pointing out a few weeks back: that one thing WSA would do well to put in place is a structure to help the young professionals - and remember at 16, they are mere kids - to better manage their money and their career.

What I object you see is that currently WSA is indeed offering opportunities to play. But the reward for playing AND wining is very, very poor in some events, especially considering the expenses. As a self-employed person, I wouldn't do it under those conditions. But then nobody will deprive me of my pro status if I don't take some jobs where I know I will lose money rather than earn some. In the case of the players though that's exactly what the ranking system is doing: it's blackmailing them - to Hearn's own admission - to play even if it means they're of their pockets in the hope that maybe things will improve enough if they can stay on the tour.
Well I don't like that. I don't think it's right. Players who work, and win, should not be off their pockets. And it's not sustainable in the long term anyway. Don't forget that it's the young, low ranked ones who will suffer more than anyone and they are the future of the game.

BTW I was only quoting Ben (from his SI interview), not making any assumptions on my own.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

under the new order of merit and flat 128 qualifying system the money will be spread out better.

Whilst still only 64 players will be paid, the level playing field means the equation is simple.

Win one game and into the last 64 and you get money

Win 2 games and into the last 32 and you earn money and also enough to cover your expenses for going to the venue.

The situation at the moment is that players who dont win games in events whether there ranked top 16, top 32 and top 48, these guys dont win so dont deserve a penny, yet they take a big slice of the pie without earning it, whilst currently newcomers could win 2 games in qualifying and still not get a penny.

I totally agree thats thats wrong, but under this new set up this will be a thing of the past and those who win will earn, simples, and those who dont wont, no room for slackers

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:under the new order of merit and flat 128 qualifying system the money will be spread out better.

Whilst still only 64 players will be paid, the level playing field means the equation is simple.

Win one game and into the last 64 and you get money

Win 2 games and into the last 32 and you earn money and also enough to cover your expenses for going to the venue.

The situation at the moment is that players who dont win games in events whether there ranked top 16, top 32 and top 48, these guys dont win so dont deserve a penny, yet they take a big slice of the pie without earning it, whilst currently newcomers could win 2 games in qualifying and still not get a penny.

I totally agree thats thats wrong, but under this new set up this will be a thing of the past and those who win will earn, simples, and those who dont wont, no room for slackers

yeah ive come very much round to flatt system ....

one question though with 128 pros where does that leave amataurs regarding PTC ?

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Witz practicing is necessary as much as playing competitive snooker. One can't replace the other.
Practicing is about drill. It's about creating, or maintaining, all those automatisms that make it possible for them to play the bread and butter shots in confidence without spending too much mental energy and concentration. They need this energy and concentration for those aspects of the match that don't belong to automatisms, difficult shots, creative safeties and - importantly - emotions control.
Playing competitive is about self assessment against others, sharpness and dealing with actual challenges.

I do agree that the flat structure will solve the "reward" problem to - I hope - a large extend. However it's not in place now and the guys have to face their financial obligations now, not in a couple of years time. This is why I say that the current situation is not right. There are too much events, too poorly rewarded, not in absolute terms, but considering WSA current resources, the tour current structure and what the players have to face. Once the flat structure is in place they will have more flexibility to pick and chose as well and hence to manage their season. But until then ...

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

one option

the top 100 on the order of merit (whether pros or amaterus) enter at the last 128 of PTC

so at least 28 pros have to qualify

lets face it a lot of these pros will be the very guys whove been used to playing in the qualifiers of PTCs plus theyll be hungry to play as often as they can so wont be fussed.

Either that or the PTC changes to say 144 players in round 1 with at least 16 amateurs getting into round 1

round 2 = 72 players
round 3 = 36 players
round 4 = 18 players

the possibly down to 2 groups of 4 and 2 groups of 5 with the winners of each 4 groups progressing to semis and the other 14 players ranking points and prize money determined on where they finish in the group, so theres no such thing as dead rubber games with nothing at stake.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

I'm all for a flat system, this current ladder structure seems a bit stale and outdated to me.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby gallantrabbit

They are the future of the game if they are successful Monique. You need to win several matches to get a real financial return. In golf a guy can shoot 63 on the first day and he's applauded. If he shoots 83 next day he goes home.
It is an apprenticeship. Losing and being skint is half the incentive to winning and making money. You set yourself a target period and if you make it congratulations. You should not be mollycoddled. It breeds soft whingeing complainers and not hardened professionals in any sport.
I'm not even sure of the flat system. TV isn't intersted in last 128. TV pays.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Gallant, even Hendry needed about 4 seasons to become a consistent winner. Trump is in his 7th season, and for all his talent only breaks through now. Selby needed even more time. Not all sports are the same and anyway money in golf doesn't compare to money in snooker. It's not about being mollycoddled. It's about making things possible in a reasonable way.
And I agree with you the main problem with the flat structure is indeed TV. If you look at my previous posts I already said it.
Another problem I can see is that in an individual sport the fans tend to build a "relationship" with their fav player(s). If players come and go and nobody actually is shown much on TV for any significant amount of time this will not be possible anymore and it might well damage the sport. It's part of the human nature to build those emotional links and it's part of the success of the sport to fulfill those needs. Be it about "teams" (there is a tribal side then as well) or individuals.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

Monique wrote:Gallant, even Hendry needed about 4 seasons to become a consistent winner. Trump is in his 7th season, and for all his talent only breaks through now. Selby needed even more time. Not all sports are the same and anyway money in golf doesn't compare to money in snooker. It's not about being mollycoddled. It's about making things possible in a reasonable way.
And I agree with you the main problem with the flat structure is indeed TV. If you look at my previous posts I already said it.
Another problem I can see is that in an individual sport the fans tend to build a "relationship" with their fav player(s). If players come and go and nobody actually is shown much on TV for any significant amount of time this will not be possible anymore and it might well damage the sport. It's part of the human nature to build those emotional links and it's part of the success of the sport to fulfill those needs. Be it about "teams" (there is a tribal side then as well) or individuals.


money in golf is relative to snooker though

theres far more guys trying to make it big in golf compared to snooker and the rewards are there for more but its a damn sight harder to be in the top 100 in golf than it is in snooker.

the tv issue with the flat structure isnt an issue at all

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic could all crash out in round 1 of Wimbledon easy enough and the tournament wouldnt die for the next 12 days

the current "elite" system just rewards a select few for no real reason other than their names, whilst the rest of the tour suffers as a result.

A level playing field will be a shock to start with for the big names and mid ranked journeymen, if they want it badly they will adapt and it will soon be the norm. If they aint good enough theyll truly get found out under the new system.

Who cares about the same old stale BIG names being through to the last 32, the PTCs prove that variety is good and its no coincidence that new stars emerge and do well in the PTC where its a fairer set up yet theyre nowhere to be seen in the rankers diue to the unfair protective teired system.

as for players needing x number of seasons to make it big, well most have to serve some sort of apprenticeship, thats the norm, young footballers etc any sport really you dont just turn 16 then become a pro and start winning bar a few freak exceptions.

but its no coincidence Trump suddenly rose to prominance as soon as the PTC and its fairer set up emerged and he grasped that opportunity they gave him and that competitive matchplay instead of practice also helped improve him in the main rankers.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

The PTCs prove nothing. You only get at see a few matches, if any, and more often than not half of the forum is ranting about how wrong the choice is and why they want to see someone else on the stream!
Also Trump is coming to age, simple as that, and if anything had a huge bearing it's his move to Romford and the Grove, not the PTCs.

As I said I'm all for the flat structure, it's fairer and gives the players more choice, but the sponsors and TV requirements will be a problem. Certainly in the first couple of years at least.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

Monique wrote:The PTCs prove nothing. You only get at see a few matches, if any, and more often than not half of the forum is ranting about how wrong the choice is and why they want to see someone else on the stream!
Also Trump is coming to age, simple as that, and if anything had a huge bearing it's his move to Romford and the Grove, not the PTCs.

As I said I'm all for the flat structure, it's fairer and gives the players more choice, but the sponsors and TV requirements will be a problem. Certainly in the first couple of years at least.


i know you hate the PTCs with a passion but to claim they were of no benefit at all to Judd is absolute blinkered nonsense.

theres no such thing as coming to age, players develop when they develop, theres no set age where they suddenly wake up one day and are world beaters

as for only so many games being streamed, well yeh your never gonna please everyone but no-ones stupid enough to think that all 64 round 1, all 32 round 2 games etc should be streamed.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Wildey

mon

players can practice with mates as much as they like nothing beats match play although moving to the grove helped unless you play in matches on a consistant level you get nowhere.

Jack Lisowski another that benefited from PTC With a runner up in PTC 3 Last season in effectively only his 3rd ever event as a Pro Player and it spearheaded his rise in the rankings and reached venues later in the season.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Witz78 wrote:
Monique wrote:The PTCs prove nothing. You only get at see a few matches, if any, and more often than not half of the forum is ranting about how wrong the choice is and why they want to see someone else on the stream!
Also Trump is coming to age, simple as that, and if anything had a huge bearing it's his move to Romford and the Grove, not the PTCs.

As I said I'm all for the flat structure, it's fairer and gives the players more choice, but the sponsors and TV requirements will be a problem. Certainly in the first couple of years at least.


i know you hate the PTCs with a passion but to claim they were of no benefit at all to Judd is absolute blinkered nonsense.

theres no such thing as coming to age, players develop when they develop, theres no set age where they suddenly wake up one day and are world beaters

as for only so many games being streamed, well yeh your never gonna please everyone but no-ones stupid enough to think that all 64 round 1, all 32 round 2 games etc should be streamed.


No I don't hate the PTCs at all. I just think the reward they offer is not fair for the effort they require and I would be perfectly happy with the 4 pointless Sheffield ones scrapped and the money reinvested in the others.
I'm not claiming there was no benefit for Trump, just that it was not the main factor by any means. He would have come through about this stage of his career in any structure because it's in him and he's come to age and got the right people around him.