Start winning at 18, or you'll never be a great?

Bourne wrote:BS

you do not know what your talking about so Stick to things you know because your clueless on this buster

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:

Bourne wrote:BS

you do not know what your talking about so Stick to things you know because your clueless on this buster

You've just proved there's an anomaly with Robertson, so it's blown your argument apart Beggars belief how people can rule someone out just because they don't start dominating the world as a teenager, give me a break. Experience counts for a LOT in this game.

i said theres exceptions to that Rule but on balance the longer you go without winning the harder it will become and the older you will start winning the more consistant you got to be to reach some standing.

Robbo at 28 has 6 Ranking Titles including the WC but to achieve that hes had to be more Consistent than Ronnie and John Higgins over the Last 5 years.

On balance maybe, but again that just proves my point, there is no set rule, there will always be someone come along who breaks the 'mould' and just because someone like Trump or Cope or WHOEVER isn't winning everything in sight as a teenager, only a FOOL would rule them out from doing it in their late-20s or even later.

nobody is Ruling them out of winning tournaments at 28 ,29 or older but theres a world of difference between being a tournament winner or Multiple Winner and being a Great Player.

A great IMO is someone wo wins two or more world titles or one world title and a host of other majors.

Robbo, Sleby, Murphy and Ding all have several years to reach that category.

I think setting an arbitrary starting to win age is a mistake.

There's nothing to suggest a player can't go on a heater and become a great of the game in the span of a few years.

We could easily see Judd Trump come into his own at 25 and win 2-3 WCs in the span of a few years, we just don't know.

IMO it tends to boil down to self belief and when someone's self belief peaks varies. As a player spends longer in the ranks without success it erodes their self confidence and thus their game. The only thing is, sometimes all it takes is one great tournament to regain that self belief, some small tweak in their game which makes all the difference. Look at Martin Gould....nothing for ages and now turning in lots of good results.

I'm not talking specifically snooker here but many times we've seen players hanging around for years without doing much of anything and then they get one win and it starts them on a roll.

The majority of Ronnie's wins came after several years on tour. In fact, I think you could throw out all his wins prior to 2000 and his record from then on would still put him in the category of greats so why choose 18?

case_master wrote:A great IMO is someone wo wins two or more world titles or one world title and a host of other majors.

Robbo, Sleby, Murphy and Ding all have several years to reach that category.

Disagree because that would qualify a lot of players being " Greats " when in fact they're merely very good players

Perhaps Ronnie meant " Legends " ? In that case you'd have Reardon , Davis and Hendry and possibly , Ronnie , John Higgins and Williams

In the mean time it's very difficult if not impossible that we'll see someone dominate the game as the aforementioned " legends " did in the 70s , 80s and 90s .

There aren't many players who manage more than one WC. If someone were to win a couple along with a dozen other rankers I think that should certainly give them a shot at a great list.

Legend status I would reserve for players who've won lots, won consistently, dominated an era and been instrumental in the game's advancement/improving it's image.

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:i said theres exceptions to that Rule but on balance the longer you go without winning the harder it will become and the older you will start winning the more consistant you got to be to reach some standing.

Robbo at 28 has 6 Ranking Titles including the WC but to achieve that hes had to be more Consistent than Ronnie and John Higgins over the Last 5 years.

so your saying then that Robbos the best player of the last 5 years??

sickpotter wrote:There aren't many players who manage more than one WC. If someone were to win a couple along with a dozen other rankers I think that should certainly give them a shot at a great list.

Legend status I would reserve for players who've won lots, won consistently, dominated an era and been instrumental in the game's advancement/improving it's image.

For me, the modern era has 8 legends only.

Reardon
A.Higgins
Davis
White
Hendry
O Sullivan
J.Higgins
Williams

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:Rubbish

at 35 you could be ready but you not going to win enough to be considered Good never mind Great.

Sooner you start winning the Greater you will become thats only sense as i say theres Exceptions That Proves the Rule.

i dont class Shaun Murphy,Selby or Maguire as Great Players yet and they approaching 30.

Neil Robertson is the only Player of the current Crop thats on the way to being a Great and Ding close Behind. but Ding was 18.

Regarding Trump he has to start converting Ranking Tournaments in to Last 16,Quarters and Semi.

he is 21 with only 1 Last 16 to his name in Ranking Tournament and he has Never won a Last 32 Match....The Tournament he reached The semi of the 2008 GP Dott pulled out of the last 32.

Surprised to see the '08 GP is the only time Trumps made it past the last 32.

He has had some right stinking R1 draws right enough. Whos he due to get in the 1st at Telford if he qualifies?

Witz78 wrote:

sickpotter wrote:There aren't many players who manage more than one WC. If someone were to win a couple along with a dozen other rankers I think that should certainly give them a shot at a great list.

Legend status I would reserve for players who've won lots, won consistently, dominated an era and been instrumental in the game's advancement/improving it's image.

For me, the modern era has 8 legends only.

Reardon
A.Higgins
Davis
White
Hendry
O Sullivan
J.Higgins
Williams

If Ebdon had of beaten Dott I think he would have deserved to be on that list, 2 world titles, a UK and 9 rankers.

Robbo is catching up and has now gone past Doherty.

case_master wrote:

Witz78 wrote:

sickpotter wrote:There aren't many players who manage more than one WC. If someone were to win a couple along with a dozen other rankers I think that should certainly give them a shot at a great list.

Legend status I would reserve for players who've won lots, won consistently, dominated an era and been instrumental in the game's advancement/improving it's image.

For me, the modern era has 8 legends only.

Reardon
A.Higgins
Davis
White
Hendry
O Sullivan
J.Higgins
Williams

If Ebdon had of beaten Dott I think he would have deserved to be on that list, 2 world titles, a UK and 9 rankers.

Robbo is catching up and has now gone past Doherty.

On the second teir of my legends list would be

Spencer
Thorburn
Griffiths
Taylor
Parrott
Ebdon
Doherty


Robbo is still behind Doherty IMO.

Witz78 wrote:

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:i said theres exceptions to that Rule but on balance the longer you go without winning the harder it will become and the older you will start winning the more consistant you got to be to reach some standing.

Robbo at 28 has 6 Ranking Titles including the WC but to achieve that hes had to be more Consistent than Ronnie and John Higgins over the Last 5 years.

so your saying then that Robbos the best player of the last 5 years??

his Record is Second only to John Higgins.

John Higgins gets the nod based on 2 WC in that Time.

But in terms of Consistency Robbo is the Man in Ranking events over the Last 5 years.

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:there will always be exceptions to the Rule but even in his first season and only his 3rd Ranking tournament played the 1992 UK Championship Mark qualified to the last 64 and played the all conquering Stephen Hendry in the last 64 and pushed him to 9-8.

we all knew well before he won his first title that this kid could mix it with the best.

Really? I never knew that. So Williams at 17 very nearly KO'd Hendry when he was the best player in the world and only really at the start of his domination. I would kill to see that match but I guess it won't have been filmed.

Does anyone have any early footage of Williams from around the time he turned pro or from his junior days? I'd love to see it.

Sonny wrote:

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:there will always be exceptions to the Rule but even in his first season and only his 3rd Ranking tournament played the 1992 UK Championship Mark qualified to the last 64 and played the all conquering Stephen Hendry in the last 64 and pushed him to 9-8.

we all knew well before he won his first title that this kid could mix it with the best.

Really? I never knew that. So Williams at 17 very nearly KO'd Hendry when he was the best player in the world and only really at the start of his domination. I would kill to see that match but I guess it won't have been filmed.

Does anyone have any early footage of Williams from around the time he turned pro or from his junior days? I'd love to see it.

that was in the days when there was only TV for the Last 16 Stage of the UK it was Basically in Qualifying conditions.

There is no time limit on being a great, it's an absurd notion. Look at Neil Robertson: was he eighteen when he was winning things?

Robertson has not achieved the status of being a great with most snooker fans just yet, but the potential to do so is certainly there, and with another couple of rankers, he will go down as a great.

thetubberlad wrote:There is no time limit on being a great, it's an absurd notion. Look at Neil Robertson: was he eighteen when he was winning things?

Robertson has not achieved the status of being a great with most snooker fans just yet, but the potential to do so is certainly there, and with another couple of rankers, he will go down as a great.

Depends what you define as a great?

He'll almost certainly never break onto the list of 8 legends i gave earlier.

At best he will be a modern day Parrott.

Why not though ? You're ruling him out before he's had the chance ...

Bourne wrote:Why not though ? You're ruling him out before he's had the chance ...

I never ruled him out, i said he'll ALMOST CERTAINLY not be looked upon in the same light as these 8.

In terms of legendary iconic status Robbo could win another 5 world titles and hed still struggle to be be mentioned alongside those 8.

Why should there only be 8 legends ?

Witz78 wrote:

Bourne wrote:Why not though ? You're ruling him out before he's had the chance ...

I never ruled him out, i said he'll ALMOST CERTAINLY not be looked upon in the same light as these 8.

In terms of legendary iconic status Robbo could win another 5 world titles and hed still struggle to be be mentioned alongside those 8.

Well that's bullocks. I don't know what exactly you mean by legendary status. He'd certainly achieve it with another five world titles he'd achieve it in my mind if he won one more.

I think Robertson needs to be given time. He's proven a lot of doubters wrong even at this stage of his career, he is pretty impressive under the cosh, he's well able to knock in a century (surprisingly, he topped the centuries list last season), his potting is another class.

At this point, I feel Robertson can go a long way. He's already a very popular player, so legendary status isn't beyond him at all (if popularity is something you're trying to get at by saying legendary). I think he could potentially surpass even the likes of Alex Higgins, Jimmy White and Parrott given time. If Robertson wins another four rankers, and maybe a world title, of course he'll go down as a legend.

Witz78 wrote:

Bourne wrote:Why not though ? You're ruling him out before he's had the chance ...

I never ruled him out, i said he'll ALMOST CERTAINLY not be looked upon in the same light as these 8.

In terms of legendary iconic status Robbo could win another 5 world titles and hed still struggle to be be mentioned alongside those 8.

I think if Robbo won another 5 WC's he's going to move ahead of Ronnie and John. He's very unlikely to only win WC's so if he picks up another 5 of those he'll certainly pick up a hefty total of other rankers and make the list.

witz

if he wins another 5 WC he will snake hiss all over Jimmy as a Legend.

1 UK ,1 Masters and 6 WC Finals

compared to Robbo 6 Times World Champion.

dont ruin a good argument talking bullocks ffs.

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:witz

if he wins another 5 WC he will snake hiss all over Jimmy as a Legend.

1 UK ,1 Masters and 6 WC Finals

compared to Robbo 6 Times World Champion.

dont ruin a good argument talking bullocks ffs.

cool thread

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:witz

if he wins another 5 WC he will snake hiss all over Jimmy as a Legend.

1 UK ,1 Masters and 6 WC Finals

compared to Robbo 6 Times World Champion.

dont ruin a good argument talking bullocks ffs.

Absolutely spot on

If I could make a prediction at this stage, I reckon Robbo will win around 11 or 12 rankers, including two worlds. Legend written all over if he manages that.

thetubberlad wrote:

wildLOVESWAGNER wrote:witz

if he wins another 5 WC he will pass water all over Jimmy as a Legend.

1 UK ,1 Masters and 6 WC Finals

compared to Robbo 6 Times World Champion.

dont ruin a good argument talking balls ffs.

Absolutely spot on

If I could make a prediction at this stage, I reckon Robbo will win around 11 or 12 rankers, including two worlds. Legend written all over if he manages that.

It would hardly qualify him as a legend though . By that time Ronnie will have effectively retired , Higgins would be way past his best and I can't see the likes of Ding , McGuire , Murphy etc exactly dominating the next ten years and lets get things in to perspective

Dott has made three finals , one it once as have Ebdon and Doherty . They did it during or just after the most competitive of era the game will ever see but are they legends in the way Reardon , Davis , Hendry and perhaps White were ? Probably not

Well he could win a lot more I just don't know what to expect from Robertson except that he rarely disappoints. I think himself, Ding, Selby & Murphy will be a smashing force in years to come, obviously not in the league of Williams, O'Sullivan, Higgins & Hendry, but still a tough group to contend with. Robertson is more than capable of attaining legend status, he isn't far off cementing himself as a great even at this stage.

Bourne wrote:Why should there only be 8 legends ?

i never said there should only be 8

read my comments properly