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Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby PLtheRef » 27 Oct 2010 Read

wildJONESEYE wrote:im going Round in circles here but i dont see the Need in shortening the Final or Semi Final its worked and it has always worked so why change it .

yes you could play around with sessions theres the First Thursday and Middle Sunday Morning Sessions that can be used there is also the need in Playing Final Sessions earlier also Spread out the Final so more Frames is played on the 1st day of the final at the Moment theres 16 played on Day 1 increase that to 18 and play 8 frames on Monday Affo with a Possible 9 Monday Evening session starting at 7pm

we could be Going in to the Final session 13-13,14-12,15-11 instead of 12-12,13-11,14-10

the key for me is getting the finalist on sooner in the day because they are Working Off Nervous Energy thinking about the Match when they would rather be out there playing.


Thats how the final used to operate, when Davis beat Mountjoy he led 10-8 at the end of the first day. The problem with that and why it'd never be chosen, as stupid as it sounds is because the match could be won in a single day if the match was 18-0.

The norm for other finals have developed from the best of 17, to 19 - with the WO changing only the Welsh has best of 17 frames for the final. - So players are more used to playing 19 frames. Starting at 2pm and 7pm could do the trick tbh. I went to the last session of the 2005 final - and we got 11 frames done in 4 and a half hours.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Alex0paul » 27 Oct 2010 Read

Bourne wrote:Each of the World Champs in the last four years has won their semi-final in (or bef0re) the Sat PM session.


Every WC at the Crucible has won their semi-final in (or before) the Sat PM session though.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Alex0paul » 27 Oct 2010 Read

Bourne wrote:Dott 2006

:chin:


Yeah, he beat O'Sullivan in the Saturday PM session.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Roland » 27 Oct 2010 Read

Alex0paul WC wrote:
Bourne wrote:Each of the World Champs in the last four years has won their semi-final in (or bef0re) the Sat PM session.


Every WC at the Crucible has won their semi-final in (or before) the Sat PM session though.



:huh: I can't believe that no player who won their semi in the Saturday night session has never gone on to win the title. Are you sure? I know I'm asking Alexopaul who never gets things like this wrong but really?

As for the last 4 years:

2010 - Dott's manager was the main story in NOTW
2009 - Murphy was outplayed as was always going to be the case
2008 - Carter was a rabbit in the headlights against Ronnie who was in dangerous form
2007 - Selby got himself back into the match in day 2 of the final, plus it was his first final (as with Carter)

I love the semi-final Saturday with 3 sessions to look forward to. From a spectators point of view it's generally the best day of the 17 at the World Championships so why anyone would seriously want to change it when you look at it like that is baffling.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Roland » 27 Oct 2010 Read

When you look at it like that - Ebdon blowing a big lead and falling over the line then he's bound to be shattered. If you're the opponent do you want him to have a day off to recover?

"I'm absolutely gone," Ebdon told BBC Sport.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Alex0paul » 27 Oct 2010 Read

Sonny wrote:
Alex0paul WC wrote:
Bourne wrote:Each of the World Champs in the last four years has won their semi-final in (or bef0re) the Sat PM session.


Every WC at the Crucible has won their semi-final in (or before) the Sat PM session though.



:huh: I can't believe that no player who won their semi in the Saturday night session has never gone on to win the title. Are you sure? I know I'm asking Alexopaul who never gets things like this wrong but really?

As for the last 4 years:

2010 - Dott's manager was the main story in NOTW
2009 - Murphy was outplayed as was always going to be the case
2008 - Carter was a rabbit in the headlights against Ronnie who was in dangerous form
2007 - Selby got himself back into the match in day 2 of the final, plus it was his first final (as with Carter)

I love the semi-final Saturday with 3 sessions to look forward to. From a spectators point of view it's generally the best day of the 17 at the World Championships so why anyone would seriously want to change it when you look at it like that is baffling.


He just said PM which could be afternoon or evening. Players have won the title after winning in the evening session, Dott in 06 was the last.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Alex0paul » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Another argument for not having a day off is O'Sullivan's performance in 08. After he allegedly played so great in the semis surely he would up his game again for a final? He didn't and pretty much fell over the winning line because Carter played like a broom. Had he not had a day off he would undoubtably played better but he had lost all of his momentum.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Wildey » 28 Oct 2010 Read

1994 hendry beat davis 16-9 in the evening session
1995 hendry beat white 16-12
1996 hendry beat bond 16-7
1997 hendry beat wattana 17-13
1998 Higgins beat O'Sullivan 17-9
1999 Hendry beat O'Sullivan 17-13
2000 Williams beat higgins 17-15
2001 Higgins beat Stevens 17-15
2002 Ebdon beat Stevens 17-16
2003 Williams beat Lee 17-8
2004 no evening session
2005 Stevens beat mcculloch 17-14
2006 Dott beat Ronnie 17-11
2007 Selby beat murphy 17-15
2008 Carter beat Perry 17-15
2009 murphy beat Robertson 17-14
2010 dott beat selby 17-14

bold went on to win the championship

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Monique » 28 Oct 2010 Read

wildJONESEYE wrote:1994 hendry beat davis 16-9 in the evening session
1995 hendry beat white 16-12
1996 hendry beat bond 16-7
1997 hendry beat wattana 17-13
1998 Higgins beat O'Sullivan 17-9
1999 Hendry beat O'Sullivan 17-13
2000 Williams beat higgins 17-15
2001 Higgins beat Stevens 17-15
2002 Ebdon beat Stevens 17-16
2003 Williams beat Lee 17-8
2004 no evening session
2005 Stevens beat mcculloch 17-14
2006 Dott beat Ronnie 17-11
2007 Selby beat murphy 17-15
2008 Carter beat Perry 17-15
2009 murphy beat Robertson 17-14
2010 dott beat selby 17-14

bold went on to win the championship


What I see there is that over the last ten years 7 times out of ten the one who won the evening session semi lost the final.
Of the three exceptions in tow case,2003 and 2006, there was certainly no late finish: in 2003 just one frame was played, in 2006, only 4. That leaves us just with one case where the winner of the evening session had a close match and won, Ebdon in 2002.
I think that's pretty significant: the winner of the evening session is at a disadvantage if the match is close (or even closih) and finishes late.
Of course the guy who got the luck of the draw won't complain, <doh> , that does not mean it's fair and above all that does not mean it helps to find out who is really the better player.
As for Ronnie in 2008, yes he didn't play well and his own assessment of it was that Carter was so flat that he never felt under any pressure and never got the adrenaline flowing. Carter himself admitted he had absolutely nothing left in the tank. It had nothing to do with having a day off. Overtired players certainly don't contribute to quality finals.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Monique » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Shall I add (with a tad of perfidy and tongue in cheek) that of the 7 WC Hendry won, in 6 cases the format was actually shorter, the semi being played as best of 31, not 33 ... ;) does that diminish the value of his titles?
I think that if they reverted to just THAT change, with earlier starts of evening sessions and possibly the semis starting with a morning session and no evening session finish it would greatly improve the situation and it would be fairer to the players.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Bourne » 28 Oct 2010 Read

NedB-H wrote:
Bourne wrote:PM is afternoon
Evening is evening

:roll:

PM is after midday :emu:

Well the next day's morning is technically after midday :huh: :redneck:

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Roland » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Monique wrote:
wildJONESEYE wrote:1994 hendry beat davis 16-9 in the evening session
1995 hendry beat white 16-12
1996 hendry beat bond 16-7
1997 hendry beat wattana 17-13
1998 Higgins beat O'Sullivan 17-9
1999 Hendry beat O'Sullivan 17-13
2000 Williams beat higgins 17-15
2001 Higgins beat Stevens 17-15
2002 Ebdon beat Stevens 17-16
2003 Williams beat Lee 17-8
2004 no evening session
2005 Stevens beat mcculloch 17-14
2006 Dott beat Ronnie 17-11
2007 Selby beat murphy 17-15
2008 Carter beat Perry 17-15
2009 murphy beat Robertson 17-14
2010 dott beat selby 17-14

bold went on to win the championship


What I see there is that over the last ten years 7 times out of ten the one who won the evening session semi lost the final.
Of the three exceptions in tow case,2003 and 2006, there was certainly no late finish: in 2003 just one frame was played, in 2006, only 4. That leaves us just with one case where the winner of the evening session had a close match and won, Ebdon in 2002.
I think that's pretty significant: the winner of the evening session is at a disadvantage if the match is close (or even closih) and finishes late.
Of course the guy who got the luck of the draw won't complain, <doh> , that does not mean it's fair and above all that does not mean it helps to find out who is really the better player.
As for Ronnie in 2008, yes he didn't play well and his own assessment of it was that Carter was so flat that he never felt under any pressure and never got the adrenaline flowing. Carter himself admitted he had absolutely nothing left in the tank. It had nothing to do with having a day off. Overtired players certainly don't contribute to quality finals.



No, what that's doing is attempting to use statistics to suit your own opinion! The only players who were noticably suffering after a gruelling semi-final were:

Ebdon in 2006 - as explained above he nearly blew a big lead in the semi and even with a rest day would still have been underdog because of it. AND he finished his semi in the afternoon session.
Selby in 2007 - an all time classic semi-final in a Saturday evening session which couldn't have possibly been more dramatic or enjoyable. And that's my point about semi-final Saturday.

And that's it. Dott had the NOTW story directly affecting him, Robertson was playing rubbish as well but he didn't have an evening session or a particularly exhausting semi-final. Carter was dazzled by playing Ronnie who he had never beaten and who was under his own pressure of playing as good as he possibly could against Hendry in the semi and was expect to waltz to the title.

Would a day off have changed any of the results in the last 10 years? I doubt it very much. Maybe 2007 is the only one.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Roland » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Sonny wrote:I love the semi-final Saturday with 3 sessions to look forward to. From a spectators point of view it's generally the best day of the 17 at the World Championships so why anyone would seriously want to change it when you look at it like that is baffling.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Bourne » 28 Oct 2010 Read

So you don't think Dott was in any way tired after his late semi-final win against one of the grittiest matchplayers on tour today ?

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby SnookerFan » 28 Oct 2010 Read

I'm a bit bemused by the attitude almost everybody on this site is taking. I've stated I think it'd more difficult to implement then people think, but if we take that aside, I'm baffled why people care so much one way or the other.

Let's just assume for a moment, it can be done in a way that doesn't mean we miss any of the final. What's the big deal. We have some people going; "Oh my god. Having a day of rest will damage the whole sport. A days rest before a final is a sickness we will never be able to remove from the sport." <doh> The people who feel otherwise are saying it's cruel and inhuman. Again <doh> . If you are in a final of the World Championship, whatever happens, you are being paid a lot of money to play a game of snooker. Yes, there's a lot of pressure on it, but I fail to see this opinion it's tantamount to some kind of psychological trauma. They are tired for working long hours, but it's hardly slave labour.

It wouldn't make any difference to my enjoyment of the game if they had a day off or not. But I do feel as soon as you changed it, other players would be complaining they'd have to wait around in between the semis and the finals unneccessarily. Ronnie already stated he personally hates doing that at The Crucible anyway. Though knowing Ronnie he'd say something like; "Being forced to wait a day between games is a worse crime then murder", and knowing the English press they'd have it all over the papers for a week, taking people's mind off the final. The NOTW would probably try and organise a sting.

The point is, it'll please some players, and displease others. But I can't see what difference it makes to the enjoyment of the fans. Other then the potential risk that the final would finish on a day where we'd be working, I don't see what the fuss is about personally. We are making it out that it's a decision that will revive or kill the sport. It won't.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Roland » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Well obviously yes but there's no way you can count out the NOTW sting on his manager as being the major influence in his final performance. And it would have affected Robbo too. NOTW were to blame for the poor quality final in 2010, that's what the history books will show.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Monique » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Sonny Wild was trying to use statistics to prove HIS point. Until 1996 included the semis were shorter. You cant dismiss that can you? Since then most of the time the player winning the late semi has lost. You can't dismiss that neither. It's fact. You are ready to accept that tiredness played its role for Selby. It did indeed and so did it for all the others. Carter had a grueling semis against Perry and he was done. John Higgins himself acknowledged how tired Murphy was in 2009. In 2010 there was the additional factor of the scandal, but Dott was dead on his feet after the Selby match: I was there in the press room after that semi and I saw it with my own eyes; Dott at that moment had no idea whatsoever of what was coming on him. I wrote that I would already be happy with the semis back to best of 31 - as it was when Hendry won 6 out of his 7 titles and I don't expect Wild to come and say this downgrades his titles innit? ;) - and evening sessions start earlier, and if possible avoided on the last day, by starting in the morning of the first "semis" day. It can only be fairer and bring us better snooker. And if I had my way, the Final would end on Sunday, so that people outside UK, who work on Monday, can watch it.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Eirebilly » 28 Oct 2010 Read

I honestly dont see the need to change it at all. The players know it, can mentally prepare for it. Its just another way of testing them.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby randam05 » 28 Oct 2010 Read

eirebilly wrote:I honestly dont see the need to change it at all. The players know it, can mentally prepare for it. Its just another way of testing them.


:bowdown: <ok>

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Bourne » 28 Oct 2010 Read

eirebilly wrote:I honestly dont see the need to change it at all. The players know it, can mentally prepare for it. Its just another way of testing them.

I know everyone will agree with that in essence, but is it right to keep it as it is if it means it's at the expense of the skill of the game ?

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Eirebilly » 28 Oct 2010 Read

There is always going to be something that will effect a players form, be it nerves, timing or tiredness. Some players play with momentum and given a break may go off the boil. I am not against changing but dont really see any problem with it now.

Re: Selby: Hands off the World's

Postby Monique » 28 Oct 2010 Read

Bourne wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I honestly dont see the need to change it at all. The players know it, can mentally prepare for it. Its just another way of testing them.

I know everyone will agree with that in essence, but is it right to keep it as it is if it means it's at the expense of the skill of the game ?

Exactly. And making it difficult to follow the Final for everyone outside UK as we don't have bank holidays. Monday is a normal working day for us and you can add to that that most people in Europe are 1 or 2 hours ahead of UK. Would it really deprive UK fans of ANYTHING if it started earlier and finished on Sunday other that "trouble" old habits?
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