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How should we count ranking titles?

Postby gninnur karona

How many ranking events has Tom Ford won?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 2, a figure that Tom Ford himself confirmed he agreed with during a WST podcast towards the end of last season. Yet many people still regard Tom Ford as having never won a ranking event.

How many Paul Hunter Classics have been ranking events?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 9, a figure that should be indisputable given that all 9 tournaments were open to amateurs and best of 7s throughout. Yet many people have chosen to credit Mark Selby, Michael White and Kyren Wilson with one ranking title whilst discounting the other 6 tournaments. More strangely those people don't consider the three Paul Hunter Classics that attracted the most professional players as counting for ranking title purposes yet do count the Paul Hunter Classic that featured the least professional players.

Should the ShootOut be a ranking event?

Many people say no. In reality, though, why does anyone care? A ranking event should be any event that awards ranking points. Simple.

That's an excellent point, possibly, but then why not class the ShootOut as invitational?

Frankly, I'm more concerned about righting the injustice that Tom Ford is suffering.

Events have different significance. Whilst the World Championship is evidently the most important I am aware that the majority will disagree with my opinion that the Tour Championship is the second most prestigious event on the calendar.

Let's see what list an alternative system of evaluating titles would produce. I have trawled through each of the events awarding ranking points since the beginning of 2010-11, the debut of the Barry Hearn era. With the exception of the Pro Series, which had no final and for which I have credited Mark Williams with 2 points, I have awarded each winning finalist a number of points equivalent to the number of frames they won in that final.

The result is (subject to being corrected if any errors):
Updated 3 October 2022 to include European Masters and British Open victories this season
240 Mark Selby
233 Judd Trump
213 Ronnie O’Sullivan
178 Neil Robertson
111 John Higgins
103 Ding Junhui
78 Mark Allen
75 Stuart Bingham
71 Mark Williams
63 Shaun Murphy
35 Kyren Wilson
33 Allister Carter
31 Stephen Maguire
27 Barry Hawkins
24 Ricky Walden
22 Luca Brecel; Marco Fu
21 Joe Perry
20 Ryan Day
19 Zhao Xintong
13 Liang Wenbo; Martin Gould
12 Stephen Lee
10 Fan Zhengyi; Peter Ebdon
9 Anthony Hamilton; Jimmy Robertson; Jordan Brown; Mark King; Michael Holt; Michael White
8 Tom Ford
6 Anthony McGill
5 Matthew Selt; Yan Bingtao
4 Andrew Higginson; Barry Pinches; Ben Woollaston; Dominic Dale; Ju Reti; Marcus Campbell; Rob Milkins; Rod Lawler; Rory McLeod
3 David Gilbert
1 Hossein Vafaei; Michael Georgiou; Thepchaiya Un-Nooh
Last edited by gninnur karona on 03 Oct 2022, edited 1 time in total.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby HappyCamper

gninnur karona wrote:How many ranking events has Tom Ford won?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 2,


the correct answer.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby gninnur karona

Holden Chinaski wrote:Seems like you tried hard to come up with a system that puts Selby on top.


That wasn't the purpose at all but FTR if counting the number of titles, either including all events awarding ranking points or just those included by WST today the order is 1 Judd Trump 2 Mark Selby 3 Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby SnookerFan

HappyCamper wrote:
gninnur karona wrote:How many ranking events has Tom Ford won?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 2,


the correct answer.


+1

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby LC

Holden Chinaski wrote:Triple Crown titles are the stats that matter.


TC and TP, triple crowns for top players tin pots for lower players,

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby McManusFan

The issue with going back and reclassifying those PTCs that Ford won as ranking events, is that at the time they were classed as 'minor ranking events'. They weren't treated as full rankers at the time, and this will have had ab effect on who participated, and what their attitude to it was.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Wildey

There is definitely imbalances here if The Shootout and Championship league is included as Full Ranking Events then PTC should have a countback now.


I believe a ranking event Should have a Criteria.

2 session Finals
at least Best of 9 Semi Finals

Whatever doesn't fall in to that Should be scraped as a Ranking Event or to be fair every Event carrying ranking points is included

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

The term Ranking Event is a bit of an anachronism from the days when there were a huge number of Invitational events on the calendar. It's silly that a tournament like the Masters doesn't count while the Gibraltar Open does.

Even sillier that the PTC tournaments which had ranking points aren't considered Ranking Events. They were considered Minor Ranking events and I don't think the ones in Sheffield behind closed doors should count but the European ones were shown on Eurosport and played in front of good crowds. This was in the early part of the Hearn era when there were no ITV events or Nations Series tournaments so the importance of these events were fairly high and it was mainly top players that were winning them.

The PTC/European Tour tournaments that survived gained Ranking status but were less prestigious then they had been previously and have mainly faded away.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby lhpirnie

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:The term Ranking Event is a bit of an anachronism from the days when there were a huge number of Invitational events on the calendar. It's silly that a tournament like the Masters doesn't count while the Gibraltar Open does.

Even sillier that the PTC tournaments which had ranking points aren't considered Ranking Events. They were considered Minor Ranking events and I don't think the ones in Sheffield behind closed doors should count but the European ones were shown on Eurosport and played in front of good crowds. This was in the early part of the Hearn era when there were no ITV events or Nations Series tournaments so the importance of these events were fairly high and it was mainly top players that were winning them.

The PTC/European Tour tournaments that survived gained Ranking status but were less prestigious then they had been previously and have mainly faded away.

Yes I agree. In the future they will re-evaluate everything, once they've abolished this 'ranking' and 'non-ranking' nonsense, terms that are only used in snooker, because the feeble-minded system can't cope with tournaments like the Masters and Champion of Champions.

It's possible to measure the strength of tournaments, according to the strength of participants and number of frames. Tournaments can be assigned as Category A, Category B, etc. from which you can get a decent measure of a player's career achievements.

But in general, I don't really value 'historical comparisons'. Times change, even in snooker, and a player's contribution to the game isn't really measurable. It always ends up being too subjective.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Johnny Bravo

HappyCamper wrote:
gninnur karona wrote:How many ranking events has Tom Ford won?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 2,


the correct answer.

The INCORECT answer.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Johnny Bravo

Wildey wrote:There is definitely imbalances here if The Shootout and Championship league is included as Full Ranking Events then PTC should have a countback now.


I believe a ranking event Should have a Criteria.

2 session Finals
at least Best of 9 Semi Finals

Whatever doesn't fall in to that Should be scraped as a Ranking Event or to be fair every Event carrying ranking points is included

This is a very good definition of what a ranking event should be.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby SnookerFan

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Wildey wrote:There is definitely imbalances here if The Shootout and Championship league is included as Full Ranking Events then PTC should have a countback now.


I believe a ranking event Should have a Criteria.

2 session Finals
at least Best of 9 Semi Finals

Whatever doesn't fall in to that Should be scraped as a Ranking Event or to be fair every Event carrying ranking points is included

This is a very good definition of what a ranking event should be.


Should be.

Doesn't mean it is.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Wildey

SnookerFan wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
Wildey wrote:There is definitely imbalances here if The Shootout and Championship league is included as Full Ranking Events then PTC should have a countback now.


I believe a ranking event Should have a Criteria.

2 session Finals
at least Best of 9 Semi Finals

Whatever doesn't fall in to that Should be scraped as a Ranking Event or to be fair every Event carrying ranking points is included

This is a very good definition of what a ranking event should be.


Should be.

Doesn't mean it is.

it is the right criteria Barry Hearn and WST have had a Bout of idiocy

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Wildey

LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?

Steve has won a lot of events with Matchroom where Barry Hearn hand picked players plus there's 4 Pot Blacks in that Tally Basically a made for TV Show.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Iranu

Wildey wrote:
LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?

Steve has won a lot of events with Matchroom where Barry Hearn hand picked players plus there's 4 Pot Blacks in that Tally Basically a made for TV Show.

On the other hand he misses out on two (I think) of his UK Championships in his ranking event tally. And presumably several others that would be ranking these days.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Wildey

Iranu wrote:
Wildey wrote:
LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?

Steve has won a lot of events with Matchroom where Barry Hearn hand picked players plus there's 4 Pot Blacks in that Tally Basically a made for TV Show.

On the other hand he misses out on two (I think) of his UK Championships in his ranking event tally. And presumably several others that would be ranking these days.

No the UK Back then was not open to all so it was the equivalent to the Welsh Championship before it became ranking and open to all

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Iranu

Wildey wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Wildey wrote:
LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?

Steve has won a lot of events with Matchroom where Barry Hearn hand picked players plus there's 4 Pot Blacks in that Tally Basically a made for TV Show.

On the other hand he misses out on two (I think) of his UK Championships in his ranking event tally. And presumably several others that would be ranking these days.

No the UK Back then was not open to all so it was the equivalent to the Welsh Championship before it became ranking and open to all

I’m just pointing out how malleable stats are. Davis loses a couple of UKs not in his ranking tally but they count towards his TCs.

If every tournament becomes a ranker, certain players’ fans will use that to ‘calculate’ reasons why theirs are the greatest.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby SnookerFan

LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?


There's a difference between Professional Tournament Wins and Ranking Event Wins.

Like Wild says, Steve Davis has loads were he played a couple of games against whoever Hearn decided to invite. That's not the same thing as winning a proper event, let alone a ranking event.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby HappyCamper

SnookerFan wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:
gninnur karona wrote:How many ranking events has Tom Ford won?

Clearly if counting all events that award ranking points the answer is 2,


the correct answer.


+1


that would make it three, which is incorrect so far.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Wildey

Iranu wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Wildey wrote:
LC wrote:Professional tournament wins, so everything counts, who does have the most Steve Davis?

Steve has won a lot of events with Matchroom where Barry Hearn hand picked players plus there's 4 Pot Blacks in that Tally Basically a made for TV Show.

On the other hand he misses out on two (I think) of his UK Championships in his ranking event tally. And presumably several others that would be ranking these days.

No the UK Back then was not open to all so it was the equivalent to the Welsh Championship before it became ranking and open to all

I’m just pointing out how malleable stats are. Davis loses a couple of UKs not in his ranking tally but they count towards his TCs.

If every tournament becomes a ranker, certain players’ fans will use that to ‘calculate’ reasons why theirs are the greatest.


Yea the Gibraltar Open that's given players a Ranking Title is Basically a PTC the likes of Selby would have been on 27 Ranking Titles and Mark Allen would have been on 12 Rankers had they counted and they were open to all and some with Ranking Points Prior to 1984 UK had no ranking point.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby SnookerFan

The answer to the original question is, it's a ranking event if it has ranking points.

What we seem to be discussing is, are there certain events that are ranking events that shouldn't be? I think we all know my opinion on at least one of those.

But at the end of the day, a ranking event is an event with ranking points. Whether we like it or not.

That doesn't mean they're all equal.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby SnookerFan

If you're being technical, some of the old PTCs of old were referred to as 'minor ranking events' at the time. With the others being 'full ranking events'. So, technically you could say that they weren't full ranking events.

But they seemed to have dropped that distinction now.

Re: How should we count ranking titles?

Postby Johnny Bravo

SnookerFan wrote:If you're being technical, some of the old PTCs of old were referred to as 'minor ranking events' at the time. With the others being 'full ranking events'. So, technically you could say that they weren't full ranking events.

But they seemed to have dropped that distinction now.

They shouldn't have dropped it.

PTCs or minor ranking events as they were called are not proper ranking events.
So Tom Ford still has ZERO in my eyes.


   

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