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Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerArcher

Wildey wrote:
LC wrote:I don’t think I could ever see selby ahead of Higgins but if you look at the stats he almost is, also the grinder accusations are a little harsh he’s made over 600 tons, for the record I’m far from a selby fan!

Hes made over 700 he will more than likely go past Hendry this season.

He has over 130 more than the next best which is Ding Junhui


Ding's the better breakbuilder but he's been unproductive recent years besides winning 2019's UK championship. He's also 4yrs younger, if he finds his form (Not good he's out of the top 16 presently) he'd definitely make more than 33 centuries a season.

Selby's quite a bit behind Robbo but more importantly Trump who is 6yrs his junior. But yes credit where it's due he is among the elite scorers though I'd say lower elite, though it doesn't matter how many centuries you make, just enough to win the frame is what counts, a 67-74 break usually does it. A better reflection of how good a scorer is is their 1table visit wins, e.g. Davis tended not to clear the table he would go onto the next frame to blitz the opponent asap, Willo used to do his own naughty snooker so both players are missing a lot of centuries they should have made early career.

https://cuetracker.net/head-to-head/din ... mark-selby

Considering how many more frames he's played Selby's century count's not great, Ding's definitely better but oddly Selby's got a better rate than Hendry & Higgins! Judd's actually played more frames than 40yr old Robbo!

https://cuetracker.net/statistics/centu ... e/all-time

Of the elite players (age start of next season), frames played, century % and frames played per century made

Neil Robertson (40) 8655 /9.74% /10.27
Judd Trump (33) 8817 /9.7% /10.31

Ronnie O'Sullivan (46) 12393 /9.38% /10.66
Ding Junhui (35) 6949 /8.45% /11.84

Mark Allen (36) 6694 /7.74% /12.92
Marco Fu (44) 6877 /7.2% /13.89
Mark Selby (39) 10124 /7.17% /13.94

Could argue breaks don't tell much of the story as it's easier to score in tournaments & matches with less pressure, against lesser opponents too, player style matters e.g. Selby makes the balls awkward, much more so than Ronnie or Trump and other attacking players who keep the game open so big breaks are more common & horrendously long frames less. The stage of the tournament matters a lot too, theoretically finals should have the most centuries but often they don't in relative terms as players are more cautious having made it that far.

Here's a good metric, total career points, another one that favours Ronnie as GOAT. He's 2nd in career points despite playing quite a few less matches than Higgins (Who has played and won more matches than anyone)
& in + - points Ronnie is by far the best. (His match win rate speaks for itself too vs the rest

https://cuetracker.net/statistics/point ... t/all-time
https://cuetracker.net/statistics/point ... e/all-time

https://cuetracker.net/statistics/point ... s/all-time
Big break history, yes pains me to admit it Selby is high on the list.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerArcher

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Selby is a superior break builder to Ding IMO


Ding's not kept up with Selby, they were similar on ranking titles heck Ding was in front some years ago, with his lack of results he's playing less frames to make more centuries, had he won 2016 or 2017's SF vs Selby that should have been a huge platform to push on for more success maybe be multi world champion... I would assume Ding is the better scorer though as he has better cueball control, he's going to have to get out of his slump sooner rather than later, would be horrible for him if Zhao or Yan become world champion before him.

Ding's definitely done better with maximums though that's not an important stat, certainly not with Hearn scrapping the 6digit maximum prizes.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby Johnny Bravo

Wildey wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:I hope the grinder doesn't win any more, he's got way too many as it is. He is the perfect definition of an overachiever.

Cluless hammer You get out what you put in


The fact Johnny describes Dott as a grinder shows he knows little about snooker. :hmmm:

Johnny by name cockerel by nature

I can beat you in my sleep.

And Selby only has a lot of tons cause he has played a gazillion frames.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby Wildey

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Selby is a superior break builder to Ding IMO

As a breakbuilded Ding subtleties in position is second only to Ronnie But Selby is a more aggressive break builder as is everyone else around ding

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby Wildey

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Wildey wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:I hope the grinder doesn't win any more, he's got way too many as it is. He is the perfect definition of an overachiever.

Cluless hammer You get out what you put in


The fact Johnny describes Dott as a grinder shows he knows little about snooker. :hmmm:

Johnny by name cockerel by nature

I can beat you in my sleep.

And Selby only has a lot of tons cause he has played a gazillion frames.

But here's the Crux You don't get centuries by playing frames, You got to pot the balls and win the frames for that

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby Cloud Strife

SnookerEd25 wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:I hope the grinder doesn't win any more, he's got way too many as it is. He is the perfect definition of an overachiever.

Cluless hammer You get out what you put in


The fact Johnny describes Dott as a grinder shows he knows little about snooker. :hmmm:


Dott'll be mortified to hear of anyone calling him a grinder, especially after all the rushing round the table he's done over the years to try and shift himself of that tag.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerArcher

Ding frames played per century than Selby is lower so he's got a case for being called the better scorer. Selby has played a lot more frames despite being just 4yrs older and played far more than Robbo too, Trump even has played more frames though he's 7yrs younger.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerFan

SnookerArcher wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Talking about Mark Williams, givemesport posted this last night.

https://www.givemesport.com/88017772-ma ... ted-to-ban

Certainly keeping their finger on the pulse. <doh>


He didn't invent this I saw it done in an older match.


The media did make out like he invented it at the time. The TV channels kept referring to it as "Mark Williams' new break-off shot."

It's not outside the realms of possibility somebody did it before Mark Williams did. But Williams popularised it, for want of a better term.

I never really understood what was so bad about it. The way the BBC and Eurosport went on about it at first, you'd think an old lady died every time he broke off that way.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerArcher

SnookerFan wrote:
SnookerArcher wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Talking about Mark Williams, givemesport posted this last night.

https://www.givemesport.com/88017772-ma ... ted-to-ban

Certainly keeping their finger on the pulse. <doh>


He didn't invent this I saw it done in an older match.


The media did make out like he invented it at the time. The TV channels kept referring to it as "Mark Williams' new break-off shot."

It's not outside the realms of possibility somebody did it before Mark Williams did. But Williams popularised it, for want of a better term.

I never really understood what was so bad about it. The way the BBC and Eurosport went on about it at first, you'd think an old lady died every time he broke off that way.


Here it is! Culprit is Davis
At 3:39. Neal Foulds mentions the Hurricane used to do it but yep it's an oddity. Yep it slows the start of the frame by a handful of shots but it doesn't gridlock the frame the way they make out. Anyhow it's probably been around since the inception of the game but to hurry games along it's frowned on. (Clive Everton called it the ultra conservative break off shot lol)

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerArcher

SnookerFan wrote:It's not outside the realms of possibility somebody did it before Mark Williams did. But Williams popularised it, for want of a better term.


Must be so rare & not done repeatedly to give it to Willo, plus he has a reputation for being unorthodox, if Judd's the ace, Willo's the joker. Snooker's been around in professional form on and off for best part of a century so am sure many did the odd breakoff but very rarely vs the standard, same case as aggressive breakoffs like in that video, pool style breakoffs would be very rare too if a player's serious about lifting the trophy.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby mick745

An agressive break off shot is likely to gridlock a frame, balls everywhere, reds on cushions, colours knock off their spots, likely to make break building more difficult. Although an opponent is likely to have a pot to go at of some sort. I think i remember Davis recalling Knowles once smashed up the pack against him, Davis came to the table thinking i'm going to make 100 here, and missed the first red!

The pros would in the main prefer all the reds to stay in and around the black spot if possible i would guess.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby Johnny Bravo

mick745 wrote:An agressive break off shot is likely to gridlock a frame, balls everywhere, reds on cushions, colours knock off their spots, likely to make break building more difficult. Although an opponent is likely to have a pot to go at of some sort. I think i remember Davis recalling Knowles once smashed up the pack against him, Davis came to the table thinking i'm going to make 100 here, and missed the first red!

The pros would in the main prefer all the reds to stay in and around the black spot if possible i would guess.

That is true. Balls scattered all over the place hinders the movement of the cueball.

Re: Selby and Ronnie have won 8/11 World Championships

Postby SnookerFan

badtemperedcyril wrote:I’ve seen footage of Hurricane doing it in the late 80’s. Trying to recall when…


I mean, the whole reaction to it was a bit daft anyway.

It was a perfectly good break-off, didn't really do anything to slow down the frame and Mark Williams trialled it in an attempt to make the traditional break-off less risky.

Now, I'm one who think this whole thing about the break-off risking leaving a shot on is made too much off anyway. It's not that often that professional players bungle the break-off badly enough to give their opponents a good chance. But at the same time, if Mark Williams (or anybody else) felt it was preferable to play that break-off, there's no good reason why they shouldn't. The commentators were dumping all over him for it, and there wasn't even any need to.