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Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

Holden Chinaski wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote: The idea of being a great match player is to have the ability to dictate the tempo to suit yourself, depending on the state of play. .

And this why Ronnie decided to play those 'hit and hope' shots when Selby tried to dictate the tempo with the safety play. It was Ronnie refusing to play Selby's game, and proving afterwards that he's so good he doesn't even have to take Selby serious when he's trying to slow things down. It was a great tactic from Ronnie. This is why Selby looked so gutted after that match. He got outsmarted and outplayed by Ronnie, and even humiliated a bit. Selby has often got into Ronnie's head, but that time Ronnie turned things around and played flawless snooker to win the match.


I like this answer, probably biased here. I am pro China there seems fate pro Chinaski :-D

Anyway not quite flawless lol, that last red on a break of 64 didn't go in! Had it gone in no need for a nervy safety battle though actually it was so fitting Selby lost to Ronnie due to his safety! I've rewatched it many times & everytime I keep looking for better positional play or shot selection so he didn't have to go for that long, missable red. Had that cost him the match with him on the cusp on a most incredible comeback it would be more painful than 2014 by a lot. Rewatching frame 30 where Ronnie hit the ball at lightspeed it did look like he could have stole that frame had he the patience but it was a calculated risk just letting it go.... Had he spent 30m+ trying to snooker Selby he'd likely be too knackered to take 2.5frames so quickly. (Which he won probably quicker than had he played on in frame 30 to his best ability)

Even light cannot escape blackholes but the Rocket engaged FTL engines those last 3frames!

Oh yes Selby's twitching mouth was a picture! (Rewatched a little of the longest frame vs Yan, lol his face) I'd have felt sorry for him if not for his classless postmatch interview accusing Ronnie of being disrespectful! Muck Sourby.

But objectively yes Selby does have a good A game & I'm sure he prefers to play with that if it's there rather than grind & again I didn't watch 2016's UK final but it had high breaks so sounds like he outplayed Ronnie rather than dragged it out. He hasn't got natural ability by his own admission and coupled with his late father telling him to never give up it makes the monster that he is in scrapping, as Davis said last year's final he's like a vampire! Sucked the life out of Murphy!

Got to hand it to Ronnie for somehow always finding a way to get back on top, Hendry was the old king then it became Higgins & Willo his biggest threats, then Robbo & Selby (Paul Hunter too before them), even Murphy beat Ronnie in a big final (Champ of champs 2017 I remember Ronnie bashing the table when he narrowly failed to force a decider, missing I think the green when clearing the colours) (That final was where I 1st saw Murphy's attitude to Ronnie change, he's been full of praise for Ronnie since, not the animosity of previous yrs such as the intrigue heading into round 2 Crucible 2017)
Then Trump, they go through spells of having his number but he gets them back and has theirs, then it happens again and so on... All in all though his H2H record is absolutely excellent vs the tour, is no wonder he has the best % win rate of any player that's had a lengthy career. His tournament success rate is 1/5 abouts too.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby TheRocket

SnookerArcher wrote:Got to hand it to Ronnie for somehow always finding a way to get back on top, Hendry was the old king then it became Higgins & Willo his biggest threats, then Robbo & Selby (Paul Hunter too before them), even Murphy beat Ronnie in a big final (Champ of champs 2017 I remember Ronnie bashing the table when he narrowly failed to force a decider, missing I think the green when clearing the colours) (That final was where I 1st saw Murphy's attitude to Ronnie change, he's been full of praise for Ronnie since, not the animosity of previous yrs such as the intrigue heading into round 2 Crucible 2017)
Then Trump, they go through spells of having his number but he gets them back and has theirs, then it happens again and so on... All in all though his H2H record is absolutely excellent vs the tour, is no wonder he has the best % win rate of any player that's had a lengthy career. His tournament success rate is 1/5 abouts too.


Spot on. And even when you only look at the last 5 or 6 years. He is getting older and you start to think, ok he might be fading away from here and Selby or Trump are the dominant players now he comes back and steals the spotlight from them. Ronnie at this stage of his career should be nowhere near in the position to beat Judd Trump in a World final. Could a 46 year old Hendry beat a 32 year old Ronnie O'Sullivan over 4 sessions at the Crucible? Of course not, not a chance. It would be a complete mismatch. Even a slightly past his prime Hendry who was only 35 got absolutely hammered in 2004.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby badtemperedcyril

They referred to Davis as a veteran when he won the ‘97 Masters but he was only 39. At this rate it wouldn’t be at all surprising to see ROS competing well into his 50’s. He’s already the oldest world champion ever. Maybe he’ll be after a few of Dracula’s records… oldest ranking event winner, oldest world No.1, oldest world finalist?

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

TheRocket wrote:
SnookerArcher wrote:Got to hand it to Ronnie for somehow always finding a way to get back on top, Hendry was the old king then it became Higgins & Willo his biggest threats, then Robbo & Selby (Paul Hunter too before them), even Murphy beat Ronnie in a big final (Champ of champs 2017 I remember Ronnie bashing the table when he narrowly failed to force a decider, missing I think the green when clearing the colours) (That final was where I 1st saw Murphy's attitude to Ronnie change, he's been full of praise for Ronnie since, not the animosity of previous yrs such as the intrigue heading into round 2 Crucible 2017)
Then Trump, they go through spells of having his number but he gets them back and has theirs, then it happens again and so on... All in all though his H2H record is absolutely excellent vs the tour, is no wonder he has the best % win rate of any player that's had a lengthy career. His tournament success rate is 1/5 abouts too.


Spot on. And even when you only look at the last 5 or 6 years. He is getting older and you start to think, ok he might be fading away from here and Selby or Trump are the dominant players now he comes back and steals the spotlight from them. Ronnie at this stage of his career should be nowhere near in the position to beat Judd Trump in a World final. Could a 46 year old Hendry beat a 32 year old Ronnie O'Sullivan over 4 sessions at the Crucible? Of course not, not a chance. It would be a complete mismatch. Even a slightly past his prime Hendry who was only 35 got absolutely hammered in 2004.
Dan-cat wrote:That torturous sentence about having their number. Did you mean form comes and goes?


Yes true and often not even form often it's his mood e.g. when he lost to Barry in 2016 he was dealing with being conned out of £100k plus as they keep saying it's a game of fractions. At least more in the past his game was more go for broke than it is now so if he wasn't firing he'd more likely lose, he always says he'd rather lose playing well than the alternative & if he's playing well he'd mostly win anyway.

He's such a mysterious player with form, he'd look washed up losing to people he shouldn't e.g. Hawkins, Carter, Cahill, the press and players will be like he's finished! Didn't Trump boast Ronnie's era's over he won't win anymore tournaments? Then Ronnie will be like you 'Don't tell me when I'm done! I'll tell you when I'm done!' then dominated 2017-18 with 5 ranking titles. Or 2013 a year out and defending his title convincingly. He is bloody dangerous regardless of his ranking or recent lack of success, Selby said in 2017's UK championship in an interview re being asked if Ronnie's the 1 to beat? He said he's always the one to beat.

So yes as Ronnie said he doesn't worry about himself, he lets others worry about him!
2016 Masters he had a long break, didn't defend his 2014 champ of champs or UK title (2014 another example of his resilience, after what should have been his 6th world title he came back and won 2 big titles)
How as his opponent do you prepare facing him? Even Trump said once he's under no illusion Ronnie can destroy him at any time, the two Ronnies as they say. Just the big question of how often we see his best, maybe less with age but he's become a much better matchplayer, his B game is very good now.

Sure he may win half as much as Hendry or Davis in a 10yr span but he's certainly more exciting because he's not as consistent a winner or player but you know it could be his time anytime, the fun and frustration he brings! His longevity is insane, if we compare other GOATS they're like lion kings or dominant stags, seal beachmasters.... They have their time at the top but it's not long and they never get it back usually once ousted, Ronnie's like the Terminator he keeps coming back! (Except he doesn't disappoint like a bad sequel)

If Judd is the ace in the pack Ronnie is the joker! He can be the best of the best or spectacularly crash e.g. walking out of a match or prior to that wearing a towel over his head & giving his cue away after losing to Graeme Dott eventual world champion (Even then he showed his recovery, he went on to win the Masters easily vs Ding and even comforted the crying teenager during the match) (Why his critics don't reflect more on things like that, paints a more positive and balanced picture than him as some spoilt troublemaker superstar of the sport)

Siesta from Leicester :-D Perhaps if they make a sleeper train going there (Don't imagine so with the UK being so diddy) Selby can be the main shareholder.

Re Steve Davis winning the Masters the way he did, that was the first match I saw Ronnie play and I was so disappointed how on earth he lost with such a good lead! Nature of sport I know...

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

TheRocket wrote:
Spot on. And even when you only look at the last 5 or 6 years. He is getting older and you start to think, ok he might be fading away from here and Selby or Trump are the dominant players now he comes back and steals the spotlight from them. Ronnie at this stage of his career should be nowhere near in the position to beat Judd Trump in a World final. Could a 46 year old Hendry beat a 32 year old Ronnie O'Sullivan over 4 sessions at the Crucible? Of course not, not a chance. It would be a complete mismatch. Even a slightly past his prime Hendry who was only 35 got absolutely hammered in 2004.


Pretty sure every Ronnie fan has seen this, if they haven't.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nka3viX7tDE

This was after he tied Higgins as 4x world champion I assume during his famous hiatus in 2012-13, which was a possible early retirement back then. (I might as well rewatch it to celebrate his 7th WT, seeing him talk about his struggles it will be that much sweeter!)

This show gives a good insight into him, his past that formulated who he became & his often troubled career which was slow to start at least in him becoming a world champion, which was his destiny since childhood but importantly you learn, yes he says he doesn't care about records or rank beyond being a seed at least (Though 2018 UK championship that caustic BBC interview where he tore into the Hearn system & mentioned a breakaway tour he did say he wants to be no.1! He really said it! Which he did in 2019 months later) but here he shows clearly he does get bothered with people doubting him as he feels his has to prove something and he will! For people wanting him to keep breaking records & other players that seems to be the way! (One way at least, being happy & focused also gets him good results, which is better for his emotional health)

(I know someone from the casino an old guy, in 2019 or 2020 before lockdown his words re Ronnie is he's lost his edge, he sports bets so Ronnie losing to Cahill was a massive shock.... Anyhow he bet on Ronnie in 2004 vs Dott £40000!!!!!!! He was so nervous with Ronnie going 5-0 down his mother was wondering why was he acting so odd? LOL) So last I saw him late 2020 I mentioned the Crucible of course with the SF comeback & he said he's a genius! Quite a jump from 'He's lost his edge' though in fairness 2015-19 his crucible record did suggest maybe that was the case)

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Acé

Ronnie won't give the same credit to Selby obviously cause there's a proper distaste between the 2, you can feel it through the screen when they play each other but I bet you Ronnie considers Selby the biggest threat to his own World Championship titles

Ronnie HAD Hendry until he equalled him but he definitely keeping a keen eye in the rear mirror for Selby, no doubt, he's the biggest threat for World Championships compared to any current player and Ronnie knows it

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Acé

the next 2 years will be interesting for Selby he's gonna be 40 at the next World Championship but we know being in your 40s these days isnt much of an issue but if he willing to keep grinding it out

next 2 years will be telling for his career trajectory

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Acé wrote:the next 2 years will be interesting for Selby he's gonna be 40 at the next World Championship but we know being in your 40s these days isnt much of an issue but if he willing to keep grinding it out

next 2 years will be telling for his career trajectory

Completely agree with you on Selby.
But the question is whether or not he can carry his grinding style into his 40s. That style requires a lot more energy.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

Acé wrote:the next 2 years will be interesting for Selby he's gonna be 40 at the next World Championship but we know being in your 40s these days isnt much of an issue but if he willing to keep grinding it out

next 2 years will be telling for his career trajectory


39, his birthday is June.
Johnny Bravo wrote:
Acé wrote:the next 2 years will be interesting for Selby he's gonna be 40 at the next World Championship but we know being in your 40s these days isnt much of an issue but if he willing to keep grinding it out

next 2 years will be telling for his career trajectory

Completely agree with you on Selby.
But the question is whether or not he can carry his grinding style into his 40s. That style requires a lot more energy.


Yes Ronnie commented on Selby's style being draining & he doesn't think that's sustainable for a career. Definitely Selby will suffer with age, concentration being a huge issue with age, even with Ronnie it seeps in, Higgins it seems the case more so.

Selby is the only multi champion outside the class of 92 (Wow says something about their era and how open it's been since), I'd say Trump is certainly as big a threat for multi titles as Selby as he's young & if the class of 92 retire or dip in prowess, with current youngsters not showing much promise outside of China for the most part, it could be open season for whoever is left (Yan may pose further problems for Selby ofc as he proved he has the patience)... Anycase terms of TCs neither Trump or Selby most recent years have been successful, even if Selby does close in on the top WC tallies he's very far behind on the others vs Ronnie & Hendry, Davis too barring being 3 Masters titles also. Begs the question why that is, same for Higgins. (That would be the tie breaker if either did get to 5 WT if Ronnie didn't get past 5), Selby's style seems to have become too specialised for long matches, serious threat for any multi session match but majority of the tour are 1 session matches pre final.

Trump actually has a very good crucible record for early , he very reliably makes the QF, nearly every year since his first, however he's only got past it 5/9times if I counted right.
Ronnie's career is very impressive when you consider he's not only been to the crucible every year but 2/3times he's made the QF or better, 13/30 so nearly half the one table setup. Going on his visits from 2015 to 2021 a new fan would be forgiven thinking he has a bad record but overall I think he's done alright! :bowdown:
Last edited by SnookerArcher on 25 May 2022, edited 1 time in total.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Acé wrote:the next 2 years will be interesting for Selby he's gonna be 40 at the next World Championship but we know being in your 40s these days isnt much of an issue but if he willing to keep grinding it out

next 2 years will be telling for his career trajectory

Completely agree with you on Selby.
But the question is whether or not he can carry his grinding style into his 40s. That style requires a lot more energy.


He almost didn't turn up to defend his title this season, not wishing ill on him but his mental health is far more fragile than we realised so it's difficult to tell how his later career will go. But he seemed relieved after losing to Yan Bingtao. Anyhow the stats favour him over Willo in the Greats list but I consider Willo better.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby TheRocket

Acé wrote:Ronnie won't give the same credit to Selby obviously cause there's a proper distaste between the 2, you can feel it through the screen when they play each other but I bet you Ronnie considers Selby the biggest threat to his own World Championship titles

Ronnie HAD Hendry until he equalled him but he definitely keeping a keen eye in the rear mirror for Selby, no doubt, he's the biggest threat for World Championships compared to any current player and Ronnie knows it


I agree with this. Thats why I had said that equalling Hendry is very important but its also almost equally important for Ronnie to keep Selby and Higgins at bay who are his main two career rivals alongside Hendry.

Higgins has no hope of catching Ronnie now, it was already over when Ronnie won his 6th but Selby was posing a threat. Selby might still have another push in him but 7 will be a very huge challenge. I would be surprised if he made it.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

HappyCamper wrote:




I agree unfortunately the flag of the warmongering nation in that video lives on war, 226yrs as a Republic and only 16 of which was war free! If not warring themselves they make a lot selling arms to countries at war or who fear war. More world's mafia than world's policeman.

I'm not one who only counts world titles as the measure of a player, that's overly dismissive. Anyhow Ronnie's biggest rivals still active he has some daylight between them in WT after his 6th, even at 5 though yes just 1 ahead of Higgins & 2 vs Selby (all being equal tied as Selby likely would have won 2020 if Ronnie lost the SF) & Willo but the Rocket is lightyears ahead of them in other metrics, 7UKs and Masters, now it's a point Selby and Higgins have fewer TCs combined! John has 3 UKs 2 Masters, Selby 2UKs 3Masters, Willo 2, 2. Ronnie literally is their combined totals for the UK and Masters!

Prize money Ronnie is very far ahead of no.2 who is Higgins. Centuries again the same, 147s is comparable, ranking titles could say so, 31 vs 39 is it? For the sake of parity Mark has had 7yrs less as a pro but when people try to put Higgins ahead of Ronnie on the pecking order I laugh, it's not like Hendry vs Ronnie where one can argue Hendry's older, Ronnie got the better of him past his prime, class of 92 are great to compare directly being the same age so cross era arguments doesn't apply. Pre Steve Peters yes Ronnie was more comparable to Higgins and Willo in career success, Willo fell behind since (Other than that fantastic 2018 world title) & Ronnie's left them behind. Higgins has made many TC finals since 2011 but just can't win any, Willo just the 1 world title, Ronnie won 1 TC every season from 2012-2020!

Selby, odd as it sounds is more likely to get closer to the crucible record than for the other 2 TCs. It should be easier to win the less prestigious TCs! (Though Masters is arguably the hardest to win, only Hendry and Ronnie have won >3)

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

TheRocket wrote:
Acé wrote:Ronnie won't give the same credit to Selby obviously cause there's a proper distaste between the 2, you can feel it through the screen when they play each other but I bet you Ronnie considers Selby the biggest threat to his own World Championship titles

Ronnie HAD Hendry until he equalled him but he definitely keeping a keen eye in the rear mirror for Selby, no doubt, he's the biggest threat for World Championships compared to any current player and Ronnie knows it


I agree with this. Thats why I had said that equalling Hendry is very important but its also almost equally important for Ronnie to keep Selby and Higgins at bay who are his main two career rivals alongside Hendry.

Higgins has no hope of catching Ronnie now, it was already over when Ronnie won his 6th but Selby was posing a threat. Selby might still have another push in him but 7 will be a very huge challenge. I would be surprised if he made it.


Selby had the 2016-7 repeat, not that it was easy he was pushed close every 1 table match (Marco and Ding took 15frames off him SF, Ding took 14 in the final and Higgins 15) and last year both 1table matches he lost 15frames but he definitely hasn't been as good a player since his freak 2016-17 season for whatever reason, I am glad Yan Bingtao exists because without the veterans who can put Selby away I can envisage him having his way with the younger players who haven't the grit to deal with his frustrating style in a long format match. I thought positive players are the answer to foiling him but Bingham & Murphy both came short.
Anyhow Selby's style doesn't work against players on good form, no miss snooker e.g Higgins held him to 7pts in a best of 11 last year! Or lesser extent Ronnie in frames 31-32 of 2020's SF and almost the decider.
But yes sustaining an A game for more than 1 day is very hard & he's such a dogged player, the more he falls behind the more awkward he makes the game. Opposite of Ronnie, Ronnie being the worst player to fall behind, Selby is the worst to go ahead of!

After his win Davis said Selby may actually be a bigger threat to Hendry's record than Ronnie! I was so insulted by that am sure I wasn't the only fan to be but it probably was the best thing someone could have said if it had any bearing on Ronnie's triumph! (He says he isn't bothered but I'm quite sure he is, he certainly does take note when people doubt him or favour others above him, he always reminds us he's not done yet! )

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Ck147

Ronnie not GOAT until he hits 8, right now he is joint GOAT. The WC is the only measure. Same in other sports, like F1 between Hammy and Schumacher. There will aways be an argument between numbers/stats but the only one that counts is the WC. We all know it. I can see Ronnie winning it again and settling the argument.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Ck147 wrote:Ronnie not GOAT until he hits 8, right now he is joint GOAT. The WC is the only measure. Same in other sports, like F1 between Hammy and Schumacher. There will aways be an argument between numbers/stats but the only one that counts is the WC. We all know it. I can see Ronnie winning it again and settling the argument.

What a load of B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.
Everything matters, not just the WC.
And the most succesful player in a sport ain't automatically the GOAT.That's the stupidest idea.Success depends on the era in which someone competed, the competition he faced, the equipment, etc.

Tiger Woods is the golf GOAT, despite not having more majors than Jack Nicklaus.
And the whinner Crymilton ain't even top 3 in F1, let alone the GOAT.
Ayrton Senna is the F1 GOAT.Schumacher and Fangio complete the top 3.
Michael Jordan is the NBA GOAT, despite having 6 NBA titles compared to Bill Russell's 11.

GOAT is about way more than just titles.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Ck147

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Ck147 wrote:Ronnie not GOAT until he hits 8, right now he is joint GOAT. The WC is the only measure. Same in other sports, like F1 between Hammy and Schumacher. There will aways be an argument between numbers/stats but the only one that counts is the WC. We all know it. I can see Ronnie winning it again and settling the argument.

What a load of B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.
Everything matters, not just the WC.
And the most succesful player in a sport ain't automatically the GOAT.That's the stupidest idea.Success depends on the era in which someone competed, the competition he faced, the equipment, etc.

Tiger Woods is the golf GOAT, despite not having more majors than Jack Nicklaus.
And the whinner Crymilton ain't even top 3 in F1, let alone the GOAT.
Ayrton Senna is the F1 GOAT.Schumacher and Fangio complete the top 3.
Michael Jordan is the NBA GOAT, despite having 6 NBA titles compared to Bill Russell's 11.

GOAT is about way more than just titles.

Nah, think you have it wrong, in many years time after we are all gone it will just come down to a number…the number in the event that counts.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby McManusFan

Holden Chinaski wrote:In many years time the only snooker player who will be remembered will be Ronnie.


Nah someone will do some weird music that heavily samples John Virgo going "where's the cue ball going", and that's all that will be remembered about snooker.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Juddernaut88

McManusFan wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:In many years time the only snooker player who will be remembered will be Ronnie.


Nah someone will do some weird music that heavily samples John Virgo going "where's the cue ball going", and that's all that will be remembered about snooker.


:goodpost:

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Ck147

McManusFan wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:In many years time the only snooker player who will be remembered will be Ronnie.


Nah someone will do some weird music that heavily samples John Virgo going "where's the cue ball going", and that's all that will be remembered about snooker.

Lol