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Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

Hello everyone,
I was wondering what were the best snooker players that, for a reason or another, were never able to fully show their potential on the professional game.
I was trying to recollect memories from the past and we never saw at their best players like Cliff Wilson, Patsy Houlihan, Marcus Owen, Norman Squire and so on (personal list).
I'm also sure, and you'll probably know better than me, that in the 80's/90's, after snooker's boom, there were a lot of amazing players that never "made it".
What are the ones that you consider the best in this category?

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Johnny Bravo

MarcoStaiano wrote:Hello everyone,
I was wondering what were the best snooker players that, for a reason or another, were never able to fully show their potential on the professional game.
I was trying to recollect memories from the past and we never saw at their best players like Cliff Wilson, Patsy Houlihan, Marcus Owen, Norman Squire and so on (personal list).
I'm also sure, and you'll probably know better than me, that in the 80's/90's, after snooker's boom, there were a lot of amazing players that never "made it".
What are the ones that you consider the best in this category?

Jamie Cope & Michael Holt

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby LDS

I don't know how much non-made-it you require, but the most famous lost talent for personality reasons was Quintin Hann. For health reasons, Paul Hunter. For unknown reasons, David Gray. For traffic accident reasons, Steve James. Etc.

But in the pantheon of players we barely ever saw, then the late 90s would be your main goldmine. It's unquantifiable just how many young players were in-and-around the scene at that time. Nearly every tournament had a new young thing being highlighted by a surprisingly good run, many of whom were rarely seen again in any great quantity.

Euan Henderson, for example, got to the final of 1996 Grand Prix, aged 29, and it's literally the only thing mentioned on his wikipedia page.

In 1995's Grand Prix you have 25 year old Jason Prince making it to the last 16, someone who was good enough to earn a nickname and show lots of promise, but never made it.

1997's Grand Prix sees quarter finals for John Read, Mick Price and Chris Small, all of whom looked like becoming potentials at one point or other. Small won the Grand Prix in 2002 and then vanished from snooker just a couple of years later (health reasons). Price was ranked the awkward 17th at one point.

1998's Grand Prix saw a random quarter final for Jamie Burnett, another one of those players from that era who always looked on the cusp. He made the final of the Shanghai Masters in 2010.

Then you've got people like Mark Johnston-Allen, who could play brilliantly, but inconsistently, no-one really knows why. And later, in the last few years, quite a few have been caught in betting controversies, like Jamie Jones (who wasn't accused himself, just failed to communicate knowledge of someone else), who had their careers jolted out of course at their prime.

It kinda depends what kind of thing you're looking for.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

MarcoStaiano wrote:Hello everyone,
I was wondering what were the best snooker players that, for a reason or another, were never able to fully show their potential on the professional game.
I was trying to recollect memories from the past and we never saw at their best players like Cliff Wilson, Patsy Houlihan, Marcus Owen, Norman Squire and so on (personal list).
I'm also sure, and you'll probably know better than me, that in the 80's/90's, after snooker's boom, there were a lot of amazing players that never "made it".
What are the ones that you consider the best in this category?

Murt O’Donoghue

Your list is a good one. How I’d loved to have seen Houlihan and a young Wilson. Marcus Owen is something of an unknown. He was obviously a fine player to have won the English Amateur 4 times, but there’s something of a mystique about those guys from the 60’s who never got the chance to compete as professionals in their prime years. Jonathan Barron is another and Ray Edmonds, although we did see a bit of him as an older man when he turned pro.
Last edited by badtemperedcyril on 23 Mar 2022, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

LDS wrote:I don't know how much non-made-it you require, but the most famous lost talent for personality reasons was Quintin Hann. For health reasons, Paul Hunter. For unknown reasons, David Gray. For traffic accident reasons, Steve James. Etc.

But in the pantheon of players we barely ever saw, then the late 90s would be your main goldmine. It's unquantifiable just how many young players were in-and-around the scene at that time. Nearly every tournament had a new young thing being highlighted by a surprisingly good run, many of whom were rarely seen again in any great quantity.

Euan Henderson, for example, got to the final of 1996 Grand Prix, aged 29, and it's literally the only thing mentioned on his wikipedia page.

In 1995's Grand Prix you have 25 year old Jason Prince making it to the last 16, someone who was good enough to earn a nickname and show lots of promise, but never made it.

1997's Grand Prix sees quarter finals for John Read, Mick Price and Chris Small, all of whom looked like becoming potentials at one point or other. Small won the Grand Prix in 2002 and then vanished from snooker just a couple of years later (health reasons). Price was ranked the awkward 17th at one point.

1998's Grand Prix saw a random quarter final for Jamie Burnett, another one of those players from that era who always looked on the cusp. He made the final of the Shanghai Masters in 2010.

Then you've got people like Mark Johnston-Allen, who could play brilliantly, but inconsistently, no-one really knows why. And later, in the last few years, quite a few have been caught in betting controversies, like Jamie Jones (who wasn't accused himself, just failed to communicate knowledge of someone else), who had their careers jolted out of course at their prime.

It kinda depends what kind of thing you're looking for.


That was a really interesting contribute and it touched exactly a period of snooker history I'm trying to analize: the 90's.
As you said, when the game became open, there was a huge amount of talented players around, but considering the system, a lot of them didn't do it.
It's also interesing because, apart from some names, people that were into snooker in those years can tell you about a certain player with an amazing talent that for a reason didn't make it. Amazing. As someone born in 1995 that's really interesting and I'm collecting as much wittnesses (and old magazines) to have more info! So every other contribute is well appreciated!

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Iranu

A lot have been mentioned already.

Maybe Tony Drago deserves a mention. You don’t make the fastest ever century without crazy talent, though I guess you could argue he made better use of it than many.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

badtemperedcyril wrote:
MarcoStaiano wrote:Hello everyone,
I was wondering what were the best snooker players that, for a reason or another, were never able to fully show their potential on the professional game.
I was trying to recollect memories from the past and we never saw at their best players like Cliff Wilson, Patsy Houlihan, Marcus Owen, Norman Squire and so on (personal list).
I'm also sure, and you'll probably know better than me, that in the 80's/90's, after snooker's boom, there were a lot of amazing players that never "made it".
What are the ones that you consider the best in this category?

Murt O’Donoghue

Your list is a good one. How I’d loved to have seen Houlihan and a young Wilson. Marcus Owen is something of an unknown. He was obviously a fine player to have won the English Amateur 4 times, but there’s something of a mystique about those guys from the 60’s who never got the chance to compete as professionals in their prime years.


Definitively Murt O'Donoghue is a name! Saw a fantastic billiard's documentary (still on YouTube), but I'd love to see him play snooker!
I read that Marcus Owen, like Houlihan, was someone that old Joe Davis didn't consider enough "gentleman" to be a professional, but yes, we'll never know his real value between the best of his era.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Empire State Human wrote:
LDS wrote:For unknown reasons, David Gray.

Specifically, for finding-yourself-unconscious-in-a-street-in-Thailand-in-just-your-underwear-reasons, David Gray.


Poor lad - it can happen to anyone.

I really liked David Gray actually - had a swagger about him.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

MarcoStaiano wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
MarcoStaiano wrote:Hello everyone,
I was wondering what were the best snooker players that, for a reason or another, were never able to fully show their potential on the professional game.
I was trying to recollect memories from the past and we never saw at their best players like Cliff Wilson, Patsy Houlihan, Marcus Owen, Norman Squire and so on (personal list).
I'm also sure, and you'll probably know better than me, that in the 80's/90's, after snooker's boom, there were a lot of amazing players that never "made it".
What are the ones that you consider the best in this category?

Murt O’Donoghue

Your list is a good one. How I’d loved to have seen Houlihan and a young Wilson. Marcus Owen is something of an unknown. He was obviously a fine player to have won the English Amateur 4 times, but there’s something of a mystique about those guys from the 60’s who never got the chance to compete as professionals in their prime years.


Definitively Murt O'Donoghue is a name! Saw a fantastic billiard's documentary (still on YouTube), but I'd love to see him play snooker!
I read that Marcus Owen, like Houlihan, was someone that old Joe Davis didn't consider enough "gentleman" to be a professional, but yes, we'll never know his real value between the best of his era.


Murt’s early break building feats were incredible for the day - but the BA&CC didn’t really think the game existed beyond the English Channel and would never ratify his breaks. Makes you wonder, if he’d have been born in Britain the record books may have looked quite different.

I’ve never been able to find out much about Marcus.

I’m not really sure how much truth there was in players being blackballed by Joe? That said, from what I can see, he did create a “closed shop” in the 50’s, of that there is no doubt. The PBPA didn’t actually ever accept any new professionals after essentially taking control of the professional game in 1952. Even Rex Williams had already been accepted by the BA&CC, as had Jackie Rea. By 1955/56 even Rex himself was shut out by Joe when the News of the World tournament - the only professional tournament with any prize pot at all - reduced its numbers from 8 players to just 4 (i.e. Joe, Fred, Donaldson and Pulman). The reason, they said, was that there simply wasn’t enough money to share around and blamed it all on dwindling crowd numbers and people staying at home watching their new television sets. That didn’t stop the leading amateurs commanding huge attendances - they flocked to Burroughes Hall in Soho Square whenever Wilson played. In ‘65, 1,300 saw Houlihan beat Spencer 11-3 in the English Amateur final at Blackpool Tower Circus. So the notion that the public weren’t interested in snooker was nonsense. It was moreover that they’d got bored with seeing the same few professionals for years and years playing week or fortnight long matches.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Dragonfly

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Empire State Human wrote:
LDS wrote:For unknown reasons, David Gray.

Specifically, for finding-yourself-unconscious-in-a-street-in-Thailand-in-just-your-underwear-reasons, David Gray.


Poor lad - it can happen to anyone.

I really liked David Gray actually - had a swagger about him.


Yeah I used to like David Gray. Very decent player and looked like he was going a long way. Things can change very quickly for some players.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Prop

Danny Fowler was well known for being absolutely unbeatable in practice but in front of the cameras he crumbled. Quite consistently.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby SnookerEd25

Danny Fowler was consistently one of the ‘best of the rest’; even outplayed Steve Davis in the first session of their UK Championship match in ‘88; shame for him all matches in the tournament were 2 session affairs in the early stages.

My contender for great unexpressed talent of that era would be Joe O’Boye; turned pro’ with a lot of hype behind him, never hit the heights some (including himself) expected, but watching him play you could see there was a very classy player in there somewhere. Just could never fulfill the potential and really let it come out :sad:

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Prop

SnookerEd25 wrote:Danny Fowler was consistently one of the ‘best of the rest’; even outplayed Steve Davis in the first session of their UK Championship match in ‘88; shame for him all matches in the tournament were 2 session affairs in the early stages.

My contender for great unexpressed talent of that era would be Joe O’Boye; turned pro’ with a lot of hype behind him, never hit the heights some (including himself) expected, but watching him play you could see there was a very classy player in there somewhere. Just could never fulfill the potential and really let it come out :sad:


By all accounts the snooker we saw on tv wasn’t in the same league as the stuff he played back home. He was by no means terrible under the lights, but it was nothing in comparison.

I’ve been alongside him in the club a few times (long time ago) and I can believe the stories. Complete natural.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Joe O’Boye is a great shout. Him and Jimmy went to the World Amateur in Tasmania in 1980 and both almost got slung out for bad behaviour and getting pished. Jimmy won the tournament and promptly turned pro. Joe turned pro a couple of years later but was always a wild man - for whatever reason he just struggled to perform in the qualifiers and to make a mark. Shame there’s no TV footage of him as he was reputedly a phenomenal talent. Personally, I’ve never seen him strike a ball… Maybe the one that got away?

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby chengdufan

This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby lhpirnie

chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.

Quite a few players from overseas weren't able to make it on tour, perhaps because of the disruption, but mostly because of financial limitations. Indeed, it's hard to think of any overseas player who reached their full potential.

From China, there is Ju Reti. A great talent who only played one professional match. He was unfortunately never given the backing to develop his career. His life story is possibly the most extraordinary of any snooker player.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

lhpirnie wrote:
chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.

Quite a few players from overseas weren't able to make it on tour, perhaps because of the disruption, but mostly because of financial limitations. Indeed, it's hard to think of any overseas player who reached their full potential.

From China, there is Ju Reti. A great talent who only played one professional match. He was unfortunately never given the backing to develop his career. His life story is possibly the most extraordinary of any snooker player.

I heard the name, but don't know the story! Please, if you know more share his story with us!

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby mick745

Joe O'Boye is a good shout. Another was Mark Johnston-Allen, obviously had bundles of talent (he thrashed Stephen Hendry a couple of times in Hendry's heyday) and reached a couple of ranking finals. Never rose above 31st in the world and sank very quickly thereafter.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby lhpirnie

MarcoStaiano wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.

Quite a few players from overseas weren't able to make it on tour, perhaps because of the disruption, but mostly because of financial limitations. Indeed, it's hard to think of any overseas player who reached their full potential.

From China, there is Ju Reti. A great talent who only played one professional match. He was unfortunately never given the backing to develop his career. His life story is possibly the most extraordinary of any snooker player.

I heard the name, but don't know the story! Please, if you know more share his story with us!

Yes, I read an article about him (in Chinese) a few years ago, which I can't find anymore. So I'm relying on memory a bit here.


Ju Reti was from a very poor family in Xinjiang, a Uighur Muslim. His father, a farmer, died when Ju was only 12 and he had to leave school and support the family. This he did by farm work, working in an abattoir, running donkey rides for tourists and a whole load of other bizarre jobs. I believe he's only semi-literate in the Chinese language. He was extremely talented at snooker, and tried to earn money as a hustler, but soon his reputation was such that everyone refused to play against him. Back to the donkey trail...

But after being successful in local tournaments, he qualified for some national events in China (early 2000's). Ultimately, his biggest success was winning the Zhejiagang Open, a pro-am PCT in 2013, beating Michael Holt in the final. This qualified him for the tour finals, where he came to the UK and stayed with Liang Wenbo. He lost the match to Judd Trump. It remains the only match he has ever played outside China.

He wasn't able to take up his professional tour card, without the necessary funds. There's speculation that his ethnicity blocked him from getting necessary backing (Rouzi Maimaiti had a similar problem).

He now works primarily as a coach, but still plays occasionally . Even recently, he reached a couple of Q-finals in Chinese pro-am events, beating a few professionals. In 2019, he qualified for a wildcard for the World Open, but decided to withdraw and let his pupil, 15-year old Gao Yang, play instead. Gao lost, but a couple of months later won the WSF and qualified for the tour.

I'm sure I've just scratched the surface of this extraordinary character. He's a bit of a mythical figure, who crops up in all kinds of places. There are stories of challenge matches with ridiculous handicaps, 147's using borrowed cues, etc.

It's a real shame he never had the chance to develop. Certainly the situation in China has now changed and the money is spread much more widely.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.


Thirapongpaiboon was an amazing player, maybe he faced some difficulties as a youngster in a new country and needed more time to express his potential.
I read that in the 90's lot of Thai players impressed in the amateur game. Noppadorn Noppachorn, Thai Pichit, Rom Surin and probably others. Maybe with a more friendly environment in the UK (now it's easier, from what I know earlier it was way more difficult) they could have been potential achiever in the game.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby lhpirnie

MarcoStaiano wrote:
chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.


Thirapongpaiboon was an amazing player, maybe he faced some difficulties as a youngster in a new country and needed more time to express his potential.
I read that in the 90's lot of Thai players impressed in the amateur game. Noppadorn Noppachorn, Thai Pichit, Rom Surin and probably others. Maybe with a more friendly environment in the UK (now it's easier, from what I know earlier it was way more difficult) they could have been potential achiever in the game.

No, the financial situation in Thai snooker means it's very unlikely we will see many more professionals from there, if any. It's just too expensive to come to the UK. However, the amateur scene is still very strong in Thailand.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby MarcoStaiano

lhpirnie wrote:
MarcoStaiano wrote:
chengdufan wrote:This is an excellent thread.

I think some of the relatively recent Thai players are worth a mention, in particular Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon. He made a maximum aged 16 in a 2010 PTC Event, becoming the youngest player to achieve the feat in professional competition. In my rankings, he got up to 64th a few months before his 20th birthday, but after he turned 20 he barely competed in any events. After losing his pro status in 2016, he hasn't been seen since. He is still only 28.


Thirapongpaiboon was an amazing player, maybe he faced some difficulties as a youngster in a new country and needed more time to express his potential.
I read that in the 90's lot of Thai players impressed in the amateur game. Noppadorn Noppachorn, Thai Pichit, Rom Surin and probably others. Maybe with a more friendly environment in the UK (now it's easier, from what I know earlier it was way more difficult) they could have been potential achiever in the game.

No, the financial situation in Thai snooker means it's very unlikely we will see many more professionals from there, if any. It's just too expensive to come to the UK. However, the amateur scene is still very strong in Thailand.


I can imagine! I was just talking in an hypotehetical way about some Thai players that never achieved the best of their potential. Don't know what is the actual situation in Thailand, saw some young players in some events in the UK (obviously Mink monopolized the attention) but I also know about the high level in amateur player. I spoke with Kobkit Palajin some time ago, I didn't know that he tried his way on the Tour, he still plays fantastic snooker and told me about how good the level is in the country.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby lhpirnie

MarcoStaiano wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:...


I can imagine! I was just talking in an hypotehetical way about some Thai players that never achieved the best of their potential. Don't know what is the actual situation in Thailand, saw some young players in some events in the UK (obviously Mink monopolized the attention) but I also know about the high level in amateur player. I spoke with Kobkit Palajin some time ago, I didn't know that he tried his way on the Tour, he still plays fantastic snooker and told me about how good the level is in the country.

Yes, there are many players in Asia who have a lot of ability, even from such places as Myanmar. But there's a heck of a gap between talented amateurs and the professionals we see on tour. It takes several years living almost exclusively in the UK to get established, and that's extremely expensive. Only the Chinese academy system and remote CBSA funding really have any chance, apart from a few rich kids. The last Thai player to get established was Sunny Akani, who couldn't afford to play full-time for his first season, and very nearly dropped out. Since him, several Thai players have resigned their tour cards prematurely after simply running out of money. Even now, there's a chance Sunny Akani might get relegated (he's had some health issues which might wreck his career).

Thanawat's situation was a little different. He quit professional snooker after a match-fixing episode, where he was allegedly threatened. He escaped back to Bangkok a couple of days before his house in Sheffield was set on fire (the fire that nearly killed the 15-year old Lyu Haotian, who hadn't been told). That scared off a couple more Thai players, who haven't set foot in England since.

Having said that, WST have just announced a Q School in Bangkok in June, with 4 qualifiers. Apart from the Chinese, it's hard to imagine how they will be able to fund themselves.