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Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby SnookerEd25

badtemperedcyril wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:I love paragraphs!

They’re overrated imo


:chuckle:

Great post though, Cyril <ok>

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby James Bentley

Great stuff as ever, Cyril!

Ever since I became interested in snooker in the early 1980s, I've been looking for a proper in-depth account of the period between 1946 and 1969 (i.e. when there wasn't an officially-recognised World Championship) but have been unable to find anything satisfactory. There are bits and pieces in various books, but nothing long-form or in-depth.

The narrative that I have managed to pick up over the years concurs with Cyril, that professional snooker effectively became a closed shop, run by Joe Davis, with the real action taking place (and the better players active) in the amateur scene. For this reason, I've always regarded him as the reason that professional snooker entered the doldrums for such a long period, but wondered whether or not I was doing him a disservice. Perhaps not.

Anyway, thanks again to Cyril for a fascinating post. Maybe you could write that book I'm looking for?!

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Yanfan

James Bentley wrote:Great stuff as ever, Cyril!

Ever since I became interested in snooker in the early 1980s, I've been looking for a proper in-depth account of the period between 1946 and 1969 (i.e. when there wasn't an officially-recognised World Championship) but have been unable to find anything satisfactory. There are bits and pieces in various books, but nothing long-form or in-depth.

The narrative that I have managed to pick up over the years concurs with Cyril, that professional snooker effectively became a closed shop, run by Joe Davis, with the real action taking place (and the better players active) in the amateur scene. For this reason, I've always regarded him as the reason that professional snooker entered the doldrums for such a long period, but wondered whether or not I was doing him a disservice. Perhaps not.

Anyway, thanks again to Cyril for a fascinating post. Maybe you could write that book I'm looking for?!

I would definitely buy it. <ok>

I read Joe Davis's autobiography "The Breaks Came My Way", and i really enjoyed that. :-)

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby James Bentley

Yanfan wrote:
James Bentley wrote:Great stuff as ever, Cyril!

Ever since I became interested in snooker in the early 1980s, I've been looking for a proper in-depth account of the period between 1946 and 1969 (i.e. when there wasn't an officially-recognised World Championship) but have been unable to find anything satisfactory. There are bits and pieces in various books, but nothing long-form or in-depth.

The narrative that I have managed to pick up over the years concurs with Cyril, that professional snooker effectively became a closed shop, run by Joe Davis, with the real action taking place (and the better players active) in the amateur scene. For this reason, I've always regarded him as the reason that professional snooker entered the doldrums for such a long period, but wondered whether or not I was doing him a disservice. Perhaps not.

Anyway, thanks again to Cyril for a fascinating post. Maybe you could write that book I'm looking for?!

I would definitely buy it. <ok>

I read Joe Davis's autobiography "The Breaks Came My Way", and i really enjoyed that. :-)

Never managed to find a copy of that. I remember trying to order it in at the local library about thirty years ago but they couldn't find a copy either! There's a couple floating around ebay and abebooks but I'm not paying twenty-odd quid or whatever they're asking.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Yanfan

James Bentley wrote:
Yanfan wrote:
James Bentley wrote:Great stuff as ever, Cyril!

Ever since I became interested in snooker in the early 1980s, I've been looking for a proper in-depth account of the period between 1946 and 1969 (i.e. when there wasn't an officially-recognised World Championship) but have been unable to find anything satisfactory. There are bits and pieces in various books, but nothing long-form or in-depth.

The narrative that I have managed to pick up over the years concurs with Cyril, that professional snooker effectively became a closed shop, run by Joe Davis, with the real action taking place (and the better players active) in the amateur scene. For this reason, I've always regarded him as the reason that professional snooker entered the doldrums for such a long period, but wondered whether or not I was doing him a disservice. Perhaps not.

Anyway, thanks again to Cyril for a fascinating post. Maybe you could write that book I'm looking for?!

I would definitely buy it. <ok>

I read Joe Davis's autobiography "The Breaks Came My Way", and i really enjoyed that. :-)

Never managed to find a copy of that. I remember trying to order it in at the local library about thirty years ago but they couldn't find a copy either! There's a couple floating around ebay and abebooks but I'm not paying twenty-odd quid or whatever they're asking.

Bloody hell! If I'd known that I'd never have given my copy to the charity shop. Actually, I will go there tomorrow and see if they've still got it.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

“The Breaks Came My Way” is a fascinating read, as is Fred’s book, “Talking Snooker”.

I maybe didn’t paint a great picture of Joe in my earlier post but it was kinda how it was. For his contribution to the development of the game he is owed a great debt of gratitude. His instructional books have stood the test of time. He was a fabulous player and all the more exceptional for the fact that he had to learn it all himself. True, he was already a world class billiard player so therefore a highly accomplished cue-man, but, snooker is 95% about potting, so it’s mightily impressive that he was able to convert his technique to suit snooker so proficiently. You only have to watch his televised century break to get an idea of the quality of his play - remember he was 61 years old then and that hundred took less than 6 minutes (AST 12 seconds!).

Obviously, Joe (and Fred) never intended to “kill” the professional game - they were victims of its demise too, as indeed were all the professionals. Fred brought a hotel in Llandudno, Donaldson had a farm in Buckinghamshire, Barrie ran a hotel in Wisbech, Alec Brown went back to bring a motor mechanic, Williams went into his fathers printing business. Only really Pulman and Jackie Rea managed to survive on the exhibition circuit.

The problem for professional snooker in the pre-television era was that the main source of income was from gate receipts, hence why the matches were generally played over 73 frames (12 x 6 frame sessions). Once people started buying (or renting) new TV sets, they lost the appetite to go out and watch endless sessions of snooker. The amateurs were able to command large audiences BUT their matches were of only one or two sessions, rather like today (best of 7’s and 9 commonplace). Because the players were “working men”, many of the spectators would’ve been followers or backers, maybe work mates? Most of any income generated from the matches would go towards hiring the hall.

So although it’s true that the likes of Houlihan and Owen were kept out by Joe, the reality is there was no money in the game and difficult to see how that situation could’ve changed. For instance, the amateurs could hardly play 6-day matches when they had to work for a living.

So sadly an entire generation of players were lost to the professional game and it never recovered until the introduction of tobacco sponsorship and colour television and the birth of the “modern era” in 1969.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Yanfan

badtemperedcyril wrote:“The Breaks Came My Way” is a fascinating read, as is Fred’s book, “Talking Snooker”.

I maybe didn’t paint a great picture of Joe in my earlier post but it was kinda how it was. For his contribution to the development of the game he is owed a great debt of gratitude. His instructional books have stood the test of time. He was a fabulous player and all the more exceptional for the fact that he had to learn it all himself. True, he was already a world class billiard player so therefore a highly accomplished cue-man, but, snooker is 95% about potting, so it’s mightily impressive that he was able to convert his technique to suit snooker so proficiently. You only have to watch his televised century break to get an idea of the quality of his play - remember he was 61 years old then and that hundred took less than 6 minutes (AST 12 seconds!).

Obviously, Joe (and Fred) never intended to “kill” the professional game - they were victims of its demise too, as indeed were all the professionals. Fred brought a hotel in Llandudno, Donaldson had a farm in Buckinghamshire, Barrie ran a hotel in Wisbech, Alec Brown went back to bring a motor mechanic, Williams went into his fathers printing business. Only really Pulman and Jackie Rea managed to survive on the exhibition circuit.

The problem for professional snooker in the pre-television era was that the main source of income was from gate receipts, hence why the matches were generally played over 73 frames (12 x 6 frame sessions). Once people started buying (or renting) new TV sets, they lost the appetite to go out and watch endless sessions of snooker. The amateurs were able to command large audiences BUT their matches were of only one or two sessions, rather like today (best of 7’s and 9 commonplace). Because the players were “working men”, many of the spectators would’ve been followers or backers, maybe work mates? Most of any income generated from the matches would go towards hiring the hall.

So although it’s true that the likes of Houlihan and Owen were kept out by Joe, the reality is there was no money in the game and difficult to see how that situation could’ve changed. For instance, the amateurs could hardly play 6-day matches when they had to work for a living.

So sadly an entire generation of players were lost to the professional game and it never recovered until the introduction of tobacco sponsorship and colour television and the birth of the “modern era” in 1969.

I've just bought Fred Davis's book 'Talking Snooker' from Amazon. :-)

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby lhpirnie

Yanfan wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:The “closed shop” situation in the professional game came down not to a fear of losing but to money. The BA&CC had been the self appointed authority of the game since the early days of the billiards championship (late 1800’s) but in 1952 the professional players broke away due to a disagreement over the distribution of prize money for the 1951 world snooker championship. From there on the PBPA took control over the professional game. Everything revolved around Leicester Square Hall (the rebuilt temple of the game - formerly Thurston’s, that had been bombed during the blitz) and the sponsorship of the News of the World. Joe Davis may have retired from the World Championship in 1946 but he certainly didn’t retire from playing. He remained the main attraction for the next decade and controlled the professional game with an iron fist. He was a director of Leicester Square and the principal negotiator with sponsors. Joe retired from championship play to protect his “unbeaten” record but his omission soon devalued it. Regardless of who won the championship, the public still regarded Joe as number one. Indeed, one of the “perks” of winning the championship was the right to play Joe off level over a week or 2 week match. This annual extravaganza was a bigger attraction than the world championship itself. The snooker season was dominated by the News of the World tournament, played at Leicester Square, with the championship fitting in around it. Joe conceded handicaps to everyone, except Fred. Rex Williams (the English Amateur champion) was admitted as a professional in 1951, just prior to the “break away” - thereafter, there would be no new professionals until 1968. By the mid-1950’s, the public were getting bored with watching the same few professionals playing week long matches - the game was crying out for fresh blood - but rather than open the News of the World tournament up, Joe’s opinion was that there wasn’t enough money to go around and so in 1956, following the closure of Leicester Square Hall, even the likes of Williams, Jackie Rea, John Barrie and Kingsley Kennerley were shut out as the News of the World was reduced to a “four man” round robin between Joe, Fred, Donaldson and Pulman. The professional game was dying a death but Joe refused to let anyone in. By this time the amateur game was thriving. The likes of Cliff Wilson, Pat Houlihan, Geoff Thompson, Ray Reardon, Ronnie Gross and of course, the afore mentioned MARCUS OWEN and brother Gary, were packing halls out all over the country. If only Joe had had the foresight to let them in to the professional ranks the record books would have looked very different. The PBPA was never a governing body in those days, rather it simply organised the News of the World and World Championship for its “private” professional club. Meanwhile, in 1965, Houlihan beat Spencer for the English Amateur title in front of 1,300 at Blackpool Tower Circus whilst Pulman and Williams were embarking on a farcical 49 match tour of South Africa for the resurrected professional title. There’s no doubt the best players of the late 50’s and 60’s were the amateurs, so although people today think of Reardon and Spencer as 70’s players, they were actually amongst the best amateurs throughout the 1960’s as well. In defence of Pulman, he showed was a great player he was by reaching the 1970 World final after the game was opened up. He beat David Taylor (1968 World Amateur champion) 31-20 and then demolished Gary Owen (twice World Amateur champion) 37-13 before losing an epic encounter with Reardon 37-33, having recovered from 13-27 down. To conclude, there’s no doubt Joe did much good to the early development of snooker but his control over the professional game ended up being part of its downfall. I do believe it was more a case of not wanting to share what little prize money there was on offer rather than shying away from the opposition. The professionals also had to contend with the advent of television taking away much of its audience - funny that when colour television was introduced it would contribute so much to the games renewed popularity.

:goodpost:

I love stories about the 'olden days' of snooker. :-)

And indeed a lesson for the future of snooker as well. The current elite players have dominated the game for so long, and gathered an increasing share of the prize money. What happens to pro snooker when they aren't competing, or just playing their own 'legends' tour?

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

maske2g wrote:This is a highly timely thread.

My Grandad's funeral was on Thursday. He was 90. My grandad was a good player, and I saw him make many big breaks well into his 70s. My grandad played almost every name you could ever think of on the London snooker scene, from the 50's to the 80's and was well known by his nickname Lardy.

Marcus Owen was his good friend, and he was unwavering until his death bed that Marcus Owen was the best player he ever saw. He spoke about him often.

Marcus had several problems in his peak, in the late 50's and 60's when he won 4 amateur championships,
he was effectively barred from the world championship, because the Davis brothers essentially excluded anyone who could challenge their throne, or he simply didn't have the entrance money to compete.

He was an alcoholic and alcoholism consumed him for much of his life. He spent many a night night drunk on my grandads sofa. And my aunt even recalls seeing him sleeping rough in a west end doorway in the 80's. She describes him as a very good looking man who would have been a pin up in snookers TV peak.

I know in the 70's and 80s he gave a few lessons to Steve Davis and Ronnie and heard he didn't charge Ronnie senior, just asking him to keep the glass topped up!

Wikipedia mentions that he died in tragic circumstances. I'm told he was pulled over by a dog he was walking whilst drunk in Manor Park/East Ham in 1987, hitting his head and unfortunately never waking up.

Sport is full of these stories, wasted talent, etc. But I'm sure had he been 15 years younger, Marcus Owen would still be a household name today.

When I have a couple of hours spare I’ll put together a piece featuring Marcus Owen’s English Amateur Championship wins. I have all the Billiard Player, Billiards & Snooker and Snooker Scene magazines for those years. There may also be some press reports in the British Newspaper archive which I subscribe to. Be nice for people to know if his accomplishments and maybe find a few pictures.

Although he’d have been past his best, he did turn pro (albeit briefly) and reached the quarter final of the 1974 World Championship, losing 15-11 to Reardon. He was the only person to get anywhere near Ray that year. He also made a very nice century against Ray.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Yanfan

badtemperedcyril wrote:When I have a couple of hours spare I’ll put together a piece featuring Marcus Owen’s English Amateur Championship wins. I have all the Billiard Player, Billiards & Snooker and Snooker Scene magazines for those years. There may also be some press reports in the British Newspaper archive which I subscribe to. Be nice for people to know if his accomplishments and maybe find a few pictures.

Although he’d have been past his best, he did turn pro (albeit briefly) and reached the quarter final of the 1974 World Championship, losing 15-11 to Reardon. He was the only person to get anywhere near Ray that year. He also made a very nice century against Ray.

I would love to read that. :-)

I have been looking for any footage of Marcus Owen actually playing snooker (not billiards) but I have not been able to find any,

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby BringBackTonyDrago

Great thread I haven’t finished reading it all yet.

I wanted to say though withal lathe names I’ve seen mentioned so far, it would be interesting if they could enter the seniors tour? Danny flower I heard his name a lot back in the day. I heard he was working as a bin man while hustling people at the snooker club in Worksop lol.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

BringBackTonyDrago wrote:Great thread I haven’t finished reading it all yet.

I wanted to say though withal lathe names I’ve seen mentioned so far, it would be interesting if they could enter the seniors tour? Danny flower I heard his name a lot back in the day. I heard he was working as a bin man while hustling people at the snooker club in Worksop lol.

That was his nickname, weren't it, "Dustbin Danny"!

Decent player in the late 80's, early 90's.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Yanfan wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:When I have a couple of hours spare I’ll put together a piece featuring Marcus Owen’s English Amateur Championship wins. I have all the Billiard Player, Billiards & Snooker and Snooker Scene magazines for those years. There may also be some press reports in the British Newspaper archive which I subscribe to. Be nice for people to know if his accomplishments and maybe find a few pictures.

Although he’d have been past his best, he did turn pro (albeit briefly) and reached the quarter final of the 1974 World Championship, losing 15-11 to Reardon. He was the only person to get anywhere near Ray that year. He also made a very nice century against Ray.

I would love to read that. :-)

I have been looking for any footage of Marcus Owen actually playing snooker (not billiards) but I have not been able to find any,

Was sorting through my magazines yesterday, whilst the Seniors were on in the background. Found some nice reports on Marcus Owen. Will wait until I've covered all his EAC titles before posting.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby maske2g

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Yanfan wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:When I have a couple of hours spare I’ll put together a piece featuring Marcus Owen’s English Amateur Championship wins. I have all the Billiard Player, Billiards & Snooker and Snooker Scene magazines for those years. There may also be some press reports in the British Newspaper archive which I subscribe to. Be nice for people to know if his accomplishments and maybe find a few pictures.

Although he’d have been past his best, he did turn pro (albeit briefly) and reached the quarter final of the 1974 World Championship, losing 15-11 to Reardon. He was the only person to get anywhere near Ray that year. He also made a very nice century against Ray.

I would love to read that. :-)

I have been looking for any footage of Marcus Owen actually playing snooker (not billiards) but I have not been able to find any,

Was sorting through my magazines yesterday, whilst the Seniors were on in the background. Found some nice reports on Marcus Owen. Will wait until I've covered all his EAC titles before posting.


did you ever find these bud?

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Wildey

Steve James what a talent he was as a player but only 1 title the Classic 1990 Beat Davis in the Semi's but never again reached a final and spent only 4 years in the top 16.

if someone had said that in 1990 you would have been sectioned.

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby LC

Watched a few videos of Steve James and he looked like he could have done more, beat hendry at crucible made a 16 red clearance, did he win 1 ranker?

Re: Best unexpressed snooker talent?

Postby Dan-cat

LC wrote:Watched a few videos of Steve James and he looked like he could have done more, beat hendry at crucible made a 16 red clearance, did he win 1 ranker?


He was astonishingly good. Career cut short by a motor accident.