The Masters, Wembley

This is an abstract thought, rather then a suggestion, but I thought I would make it and see what people thought, hopefully with the intent of starting a debate. I warn you this may be a bit of a waffle, but when I get day-dreaming about snooker, I like to voice what I am day-dreaming about.

How would people feel if The Masters became a ranking event? I appreciate that people are going to just dismiss it as a bad idea, and move on, but I'll tell you a bit why I ask.

A while back, I was watching snooker at my parents house. My parents quite like snooker, but they don't follow it as closely as I do, so will occasionally ask me to clarify something. One time when we were watching the China Open my dad was asking something. I forget exactly what, but I think it was along the lines of why there were so many wildcards in the event, and then asked if that meant this wasn't a ranking event. I tried to explain that it was, and that the wildcards just didn't receive any ranking points. At some part of the conversation, I mentioned that there was no ranking points for The Master, and my dad quipped; "What, so you can get ranking points for a noddy tournament like this, but not this?" Obviously not the comments of a full-on fan, so I just smiled and just said yes. But another time I was reminded of this comment when I was answering a similar question to my mum, and she asked why the top-16 are allowed automatically into an invitational event. I just explained that the top-16 were automatically invited. Though it made me thing that technically, only one personw as actually invited out of nowhere. The top-16, always in. One person qualifies and gets an invite. There's only one person where World Snooker sit down and decide; "Lets have that person playing."

So it got me thinking. There are two people outside of the top-16 in the Masters. Therefore everybody has a chance of receiving ranking points, even if there are less qualifying places to play for. To make it feasible, they'd have to maybe scrap the wildcard, and instead have two qualifiers. However, this may mean that both qualifiers would be playing well, and would scrap the farce that was letting Jimmy White in last year.

What with the World Open being a ranking event, when it's far too short to be one, I wondered how people would feel if The Masters retained the same format, but had ranking points up for grabs? It'll probably never happened, I just wondered how people felt, for the debate more then anything.

The masters almost always produces top quality snooker, I would fear that the standard would drop with the expectation of ranking points.

Although I would fully advocate a ranking event in London, crowds would be no problem, plenty of venues to choose from. The obvious obstacle would be the cost, but I would like to ask Barry his thoughts on this is I ever get the chance.

Well I would prefer the Masters to stay what it is: a non ranking prestige event. And if it was for me I would add more non-ranking events, rather than ranking events, but events with a theme, with a meaning. Event that promote a contry or area, events with some original formats or events that combine several cue sport disciplines. The reason for this is that while ranking points might indeed be something that "forces" big names to take part, non ranking, with enough prestige and money would achieve the same but without the ranking pressure. And that hopefully would allow for a more relaxed atmosphere, players going "for it" more and more interaction with the audience.u

with the rankings changing throughout a season it is not out of the question that Wenbo wont be in the masters and mathew stevens will make a return so playing for a masters spot is now open for more than ever before.

but i personally would like it to remain non ranking.

It will never be a ranking event, trust me.

Its called the Masters for a reason. Barring the wildcard/s and the old days when they had a qualifying tournament (this was only held IMO to give the tour players something else to enter, given the lack of a proper calendar)

Those in the top 16 are seen as the current Masters of the sport and having earned the priveledged right to be in this tournament.

Also how could it possibly work fairly, giving ranking points to all, yet only having 2 Qualifiers gain entry. Would mean the top 16 were at very worst 6/8 of the quarter finalists, so they would be at an unfair advantage in terms of boosting thier position at the top of the rankings.

Also, would detract from the tournament and lose it its identity if it just became another run of the mill ranking tournament.

Monique wrote:Well I would prefer the Masters to stay what it is: a non ranking prestige event. And if it was for me I would add more non-ranking events, rather than ranking events, but events with a theme, with a meaning. Event that promote a contry or area, events with some original formats or events that combine several cue sport disciplines. The reason for this is that while ranking points might indeed be something that "forces" big names to take part, non ranking, with enough prestige and money would achieve the same but without the ranking pressure. And that hopefully would allow for a more relaxed atmosphere, players going "for it" more and more interaction with the audience.u

i see what you say but we are now in a different world where fans just do not care about non rankers like they did in the 80s and 90s.

ive herd some say the welsh open was more prestigious than the masters because theres ranking points

also the John Higgins thing has put a damper on non rankers to the point some people actually expects non rankers to be fixed.......that was actually said by someone on TSF.

Fans needs to open their eyes and accept non rankers as a very important part of the snooker cog again.

The day of the successful non ranker like the Scottish and Irish masters are gone. This is top class sport and the fans deserve top class action where by its all on the line for the players, its means a lot and they are trying their best.

Anything else and the fans won’t want to know.

I don’t mind the likes of sopped snooker and the one frame shootout supplementing the real events, as long as they are not stopping other ‘proper’ projects coming through.

monique

case has actually pin pointed exactly why fans see non rankers as nothing these days..

i think its sad but thats life im afraid.

If it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

Tournaments gain prestige by there ranking points but the Masters is an exception to that rule. The Masters is the second biggest tournament on the calendar and it certainly doesn’t need anything else for the event to gain more prestige. Personally I wouldn’t like anything to be changed with the Masters and thankfully Hearne has the same view on it.

case_master wrote:The day of the successful non ranker like the Scottish and Irish masters are gone. This is top class sport and the fans deserve top class action where by its all on the line for the players, its means a lot and they are trying their best.

Anything else and the fans won’t want to know.

I don’t mind the likes of sopped snooker and the one frame shootout supplementing the real events, as long as they are not stopping other ‘proper’ projects coming through.

This is kind of my view. I don't mind the Sky Shoout out event, or the Power Snooker event going on, as long as they play along with the real snooker events, and are seen as sort of 'fun novelty events' rather then alternatives to ranking events. I must confess I am a little worried about Hearn's 'shorter matches are better matches' attitude. And I think as Monique pointed out, the one good thing that came of Ronnie saying the World Championships were boring, was that the existing fans had such a backlash at Ronnie, that it reiterated to Hearn that existing fans won't accept real, true events like the WC being replace with faff like Power Snooker.

I felt very strongly that the World Open was too short to be a ranking event, which got me thinking about this Masters suggestion again. I think Monique's idea of there being more prestigious non-rankers is a good one. I think the concept of the World Open would make an excellent non-ranking tournament. That was match-shortness wouldn't be an issue. Come on they're really too short for a ranking event. The amateurs would still get their exposure, playing real players in a prestigious televised environment, but you wouldn't get people's rankings affected. Everyones a winner. If this had happened, instead of it replacing an existing ranking event because of the BBC, then I would really be psyched about this tournament. As it happens, I feel a bit ripped off by it all.

You can perhaps have too many non-rankers. I remember Ken Doherty dropped out of the top-16 after reaching the final of The Malta Cup, and semis of The Masters because he didn't peform in ranking events. It would seem a tad unfair is a player played well in a lot of tournaments, but picked up zero points. But I don't see how anybody loses in the previous suggestion, as Masters = unranking, World Open = unranking, Grand Prix still exists and is ranking. Maybe a few other fun events, like Sky Shooutout etc as well, just as long as they don't interfere with the main snooker going on.

Well, I stay by my opinion. I don't think we need every event to be ranking to be good and players to give it their best, on the contrary sometimes and the Masters is the evidence. I can't see why the Scottish Masters, and the Irish Masters have had their days... those were events people loved. There was great atmosphere and players wanted to give it their best. It was a vitrine for snooker and for the characters in snooker.
But of course if you have no exposure, no ranking points, shabby venue and poor price money that wont work. It works only if those events are on television, in a good place and with enought price money. It's not something that can be afforded now... but this thread was supposed to be about dreaming.

Monique wrote:Well, I stay by my opinion. I don't think we need every event to be ranking to be good and players to give it their best, on the contrary sometimes and the Masters is the evidence. I can't see why the Scottish Masters, and the Irish Masters have had their days... those were events people loved. There was great atmosphere and players wanted to give it their best. It was a vitrine for snooker and for the characters in snooker.
But of course if you have no exposure, no ranking points, shabby venue and poor price money that wont work. It works only if those events are on television, in a good place and with enought price money. It's not something that can be afforded now... but this thread was supposed to be about dreaming.

i agree

we need a nice blend coupled with doubles or team events which also non ranking and could a 16 team invitational where all top 16 players must pick their preferred partner from outside the top 16 anywhere amateur or on the main tour.

Ronnie with Jimmy
Mark Williams with Andrew Pagent
Stephen Hendry with Blain Hendry

anything or anyone goes.

Monique wrote:Well, I stay by my opinion. I don't think we need every event to be ranking to be good and players to give it their best, on the contrary sometimes and the Masters is the evidence. I can't see why the Scottish Masters, and the Irish Masters have had their days... those were events people loved. There was great atmosphere and players wanted to give it their best. It was a vitrine for snooker and for the characters in snooker.
But of course if you have no exposure, no ranking points, shabby venue and poor price money that wont work. It works only if those events are on television, in a good place and with enought price money. It's not something that can be afforded now... but this thread was supposed to be about dreaming.

It is. And I wouldn't be against smaller events of this nature, especially if they gave players more playing time, and fans in different areas of the country to attend. Maybe if tickets sold there, more important ranking events could be held in the city.

The flaw about say a player winning two non-rankers, getting to the final of two other non-rankers then dropping out of the top-16 because others do better in ranking events is perhaps a minor one. And, if we are turning this into our ideal snooker season thread, then you are entitled to your opinion.

Monique, don't get me wrong I also loved the old non-ranking events. The Irish Masters was the first event I ever went to live and because of the history behind the event and the prize money on offer it was one the players wanted.

However these type of non ranking events have had their day in the UK and Ireland, its pointless having them in the British isles
1. no broadcaster for a week long non-ranking
2. money and sponsorship

So we move them abroad where the game needs promoting and you won't get the top 8/16 players in the world attending like they did for these events in the past.

Now there are exceptions to the rule i.e the Wuxi Classic which if rumours are right could be made ranking not before long. TBH this is the only way to secure all the worlds best players and make it an event to win if you know what I mean.

There are currently plenty of non-ranking events for players to participate in, but only a handful of ranking events on which players build their reputation/career on.

wildJONESEYE wrote:

Monique wrote:Well, I stay by my opinion. I don't think we need every event to be ranking to be good and players to give it their best, on the contrary sometimes and the Masters is the evidence. I can't see why the Scottish Masters, and the Irish Masters have had their days... those were events people loved. There was great atmosphere and players wanted to give it their best. It was a vitrine for snooker and for the characters in snooker.
But of course if you have no exposure, no ranking points, shabby venue and poor price money that wont work. It works only if those events are on television, in a good place and with enought price money. It's not something that can be afforded now... but this thread was supposed to be about dreaming.

i agree

we need a nice blend coupled with doubles or team events which also non ranking and could a 16 team invitational where all top 16 players must pick their preferred partner from outside the top 16 anywhere amateur or on the main tour.

Ronnie with Jimmy
Mark Williams with Andrew Pagent
Stephen Hendry with Blain Hendry

anything or anyone goes.

John Higgins with Quinten Hann

Blain Hendry will be the GOAT

Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon with Noppon Saengkham

no seriously we got to look outside the box with tournaments and formats before changing rules and taking balls off the table.

wildJONESEYE wrote:Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon with Noppon Saengkham

Hand that one over to Dennis Taylor - The-ana-what theres-a-pong-graph-balloon v Nope-pon Sage-king

wildJONESEYE wrote:Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon with Noppon Saengkham

no seriously we got to look outside the box with tournaments and formats before changing rules and taking balls off the table.

please tell me you cut and pasted the names

case_master wrote:Monique, don't get me wrong I also loved the old non-ranking events. The Irish Masters was the first event I ever went to live and because of the history behind the event and the prize money on offer it was one the players wanted.

However these type of non ranking events have had their day in the UK and Ireland, its pointless having them in the British isles
1. no broadcaster for a week long non-ranking
2. money and sponsorship

So we move them abroad where the game needs promoting and you won't get the top 8/16 players in the world attending like they did for these events in the past.

Now there are exceptions to the rule i.e the Wuxi Classic which if rumours are right could be made ranking not before long. TBH this is the only way to secure all the worlds best players and make it an event to win if you know what I mean.

There are currently plenty of non-ranking events for players to participate in, but only a handful of ranking events on which players build their reputation/career on.

plenty of non-ranking events? Which ones? I'm speaking of events with prestige and price money. There is only one: the Masters.
You reckon players would not go to Europe for instance. I don't see why. Ronnie, Higgins, Murphy, Selby, Robertson ... those five at least have played something like 10 times in Germany over the last 2 years. Why would they not go? They loved the atmosphere and I'm sure Eurosport would broadcast. Maybe not a full week but an extended week-end.
Also last time Ronnie played in Germany, in June, in Munich, he was having a conversation with Neil and Judd and was telling them how great the prostect to possibly play in Goffs was in his eyes and why. The two others had never played there and were quite interested actually.

Witz78 wrote:

wildJONESEYE wrote:Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon with Noppon Saengkham

no seriously we got to look outside the box with tournaments and formats before changing rules and taking balls off the table.

please tell me you cut and pasted the names

jesus christ yes mate....... sorry janie

The masters is an established event and is as much about the history if anything else. The money that is pumped into that event could easily support a ranking tournament so why would you go abroad spend the money on a non-ranking event for a limited number of players when for the same money you could have a ranking event for all with more recognition.

If the Masters magic was easily replicated it would have been done years ago, that why the likes of the Irish and Scottish Masters fell off the tour.

As for non-ranking events, here is some of the top of my head

Wuxi Classic
BTV
Masters
Paul hunter classic
Vienna open

Then there is 12 PTC events that have the non-ranking atmosphere to them.

We only have 7 ranking events, consider the amount of top players on the tour, that isn’t enough to help these players build a winning reputation.
Although this is staring to change with the introduction of the PTC grand final and if the Wuxi became a ranking event.

case_master wrote:The masters is an established event and is as much about the history if anything else. The money that is pumped into that event could easily support a ranking tournament so why would you go abroad spend the money on a non-ranking event for a limited number of players when for the same money you could have a ranking event for all with more recognition.

If the Masters magic was easily replicated it would have been done years ago, that why the likes of the Irish and Scottish Masters fell off the tour.

As for non-ranking events, here is some of the top of my head

Wuxi Classic
BTV
Masters
Paul hunter classic
Veina open

Then there is 12 PTC events that have the non-ranking atmosphere to them.

We only have 7 ranking events, consider the amount of top players on the tour, that isn’t enough to help these players build a winning reputation.
Although this is staring to change with the introduction of the PTC grand final and if the Wuxi became a ranking event.

also Championship League, Premier League (which is definetly a prestigious non ranker everyone wants to be in and win) , various other things like 6 reds World Championships etc

More non –ranking events
Sky shootout
Speed snooker series
2 x 6 reds world championships

As Witz mentioned the PL and CL. Currently non-ranking events easily outway the number of ranking tournaments, whilst helping build player confidence, prize money, playing opportunity...they need the extra competitive edge of a ranking event. As do the fans.

None of those, speed snooker, 6-red, power snooker, OneForSeven, are "proper" snooker events. They are variations on the game that have their interest and might (IMO they will) attract a certain audience but they don't compare to the former Irish or Scottish Masters.

Wuxi Classic as you said might become ranking.
BTV - this is a 110 sport event mainly. That's why you have the likes of Hendry in there
Masters
Paul hunter classic - this is now EPTC1 abnd it carries ranking points
Vienna open

so that isn't much.

The PTC and EPTC might be some kind of "blend" between ranking and non ranking but they still carry a fair amount of ranking points. They actually carry more than 1/3 of the seasons ranking points.

case_master wrote:More non –ranking events
Sky shootout
Speed snooker series
2 x 6 reds world championships

As Witz mentioned the PL and CL. Currently non-ranking events easily outway the number of ranking tournaments, whilst helping build player confidence, prize money, playing opportunity...they need the extra competitive edge of a ranking event. As do the fans.

Interesting point about the CL. I'm shamefaced to admit I've not ever watched any, not really ever got into live streaming, watch it sometimes on the BBC website but that's about it. I think it provides match practice in an informal atmosphere, and there is the opportunity to watch if need be albeit on the internet. Obviously nobody looks at it and goes; "Oooh look, a World Championship caliber tournament." But, has it's uses.

And the Six-Reds I was surpised at how much I enjoyed when I've watched it. I'd prefer it not to become too prominent, but a once in while event mixing legends, amateurs and current players is fine. And we can all root for John.

Wuxi
BVT
Paul Hunter Classic
Vienna Open
CL

They are not variations, some have different frame formats but that is it.

The money that used to be pumped into the Irish and Scottish could have supported two ranking events, they didn't because they worked at the time, venues packed, broadcaster guaranteed,the worlds best only.

I would be amazed if World snooker put similar money into these types of events again to create a non-ranking structure.

We have eight major ranking events (including the PTC Finals), and 12 minor ones. Not bad. And if rumour is correct, the PTC Finals will be at Citywest. Been many times, great craic above there.

case_master wrote:Wuxi
BVT
Paul Hunter Classic
Vienna Open
CL

They are not variations, some have different frame formats but that is it.

The money that used to be pumped into the Irish and Scottish could have supported two ranking events, they didn't because they worked at the time, venues packed, broadcaster guaranteed,the worlds best only.

I would be amazed if World snooker put similar money into these types of events again to create a non-ranking structure.

Non ranking events cost less than ranking events. No need to run qualifiers that bring no money home at all.