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Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

Prop wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
Iranu wrote:How many more non-WC titles do you think would make ip for having only 3 WCs? Probably worth mentioning Robbo has two CoCs which is an invitational but definitely one of the bigger tournaments now.

I've always felt that 1 WC = 1 Masters + 1 UK = 2 UK/Masters = 5 regular rankers = 3 or 4 bigger events like the CoC


Potential broadcasting changes could affect the way the TCs are presented, and therefore the weight they hold in terms of merit, in the future. If, for example, BBC end their contract after 2027 (see LDS’s thread re BBC) and ITV pick things up, then could the likes of the Tour Championship eventually become known as a ‘major’? One of the new ‘Big Four’? If so, your equation could gradually adapt as time goes on.

Very good point actually. Make no mistake the WC stands out far above everything else as the ultimate ambition of every player. The TC was a term invented by the BBC to “big up” their events. I well remember David Vine using the term “Grand Slam” when the BBC also broadcast the old Grand Prix and it wasn’t until they axed it that the Triple Crown was conjured up. In fact, back then the Masters, as a non-ranking wasn’t even considered as important as the Grand Prix or British Open (covered by ITV). Steve Davis has often said he placed more importance on ranking events - perhaps the reason why he only won 2 Masters titles in the 80’s when he was dominating everything else. Another ITV event, the old World Matchplay with its best-of-35 frame final was hugely prestigious and I suppose the Tour Championship of its day.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Iranu wrote:Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

To be fair, Robbo could easily leapfrog White and Alex. Jimmy did reach 5 consecutive World Championship finals though and was a huge figure at the game throughout the 80’s and 90’s. I’m reluctant to push Trump too high until he has the titles to back it up. All the greats admit it’s the TC titles that count at the end of one’s career and he’s still only won 3 TC events and only reached 2 finals at the Crucible. I know you can argue Robbo has only reached one WC final but he has won double the number of TC’s Trump has.

I see. I’d definitely agree with having Robbo above Trump as things stand; I think that was pretty much indisputable even before yesterday.

I’m not sure how I feel about TCs being such a significant factor as a unit, even if I use it myself. I think because it’s something that’s been manufactured a bit by the BBC, although obviously their history is important in their significance, too.

If Judd and Robbo ended with the TCs they have now but Judd had an extra, say 12 ‘lesser’ titles, would have that be enough to put him above Robbo? I go back and forth on it.

The WC question is tricky. It’s by such a distance the pinnacle of the sport. I’ve often wondered of Jimmy would rather have had (speaking purely in terms of on-table success) Stuart Bingham’s career than his own, or even Graeme Dott’s. Same with Ding - though I still live in hope for him!

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby TheRocket

badtemperedcyril wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White

I like this but I’d make a couple of observations. Interesting that you include Reardon yet Spencer is nowhere to be seen. Although Ray had 6 WC to Spencer’s 3, there was very little between them from 1965 and throughout the 70’s. Thorburn/Griffiths could also feature in your Tier 4.


The Tier list I posted there is not complete. Just wanted to mention a few names how it would about look like. As it was about Selby vs Robbo, Selby for me is a clear Tier 2 player while Robbo 3.

If I wanted to include everyone thats ever played then the list would be obviously much longer. Someone like Griffiths and Thorburn would be Tier 4. Joe Davis I'd put on 2, Spencer 3. But its tough to compare eras of course.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

Prop wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
Iranu wrote:How many more non-WC titles do you think would make ip for having only 3 WCs? Probably worth mentioning Robbo has two CoCs which is an invitational but definitely one of the bigger tournaments now.

I've always felt that 1 WC = 1 Masters + 1 UK = 2 UK/Masters = 5 regular rankers = 3 or 4 bigger events like the CoC


Potential broadcasting changes could affect the way the TCs are presented, and therefore the weight they hold in terms of merit, in the future. If, for example, BBC end their contract after 2027 (see LDS’s thread re BBC) and ITV pick things up, then could the likes of the Tour Championship eventually become known as a ‘major’? One of the new ‘Big Four’? If so, your equation could gradually adapt as time goes on.

Great point. I still think the CoC is well on its way to being something of a fourth major if it sticks around. And you could argue that if it hadn’t been subsumed into the Home Nations, the Welsh Open already could be, particularly with more support from non-Wales BBC.

And not only this but when the player won it.

Patsy Fagan and Perrie Mans’ UK and Masters wins respectively are in a completely different context to Zhao Xintong’s and, presumably Alan McManus’s (I’m guessing The Masters already had its mystique by then). Similar to what I said about Jimmy and Ding, would McManus rather have had his career or, say Mark Allen’s? Ali Carter’s?

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

Iranu wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
Iranu wrote:Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

To be fair, Robbo could easily leapfrog White and Alex. Jimmy did reach 5 consecutive World Championship finals though and was a huge figure at the game throughout the 80’s and 90’s. I’m reluctant to push Trump too high until he has the titles to back it up. All the greats admit it’s the TC titles that count at the end of one’s career and he’s still only won 3 TC events and only reached 2 finals at the Crucible. I know you can argue Robbo has only reached one WC final but he has won double the number of TC’s Trump has.

I see. I’d definitely agree with having Robbo above Trump as things stand; I think that was pretty much indisputable even before yesterday.

I’m not sure how I feel about TCs being such a significant factor as a unit, even if I use it myself. I think because it’s something that’s been manufactured a bit by the BBC, although obviously their history is important in their significance, too.

If Judd and Robbo ended with the TCs they have now but Judd had an extra, say 12 ‘lesser’ titles, would have that be enough to put him above Robbo? I go back and forth on it.

The WC question is tricky. It’s by such a distance the pinnacle of the sport. I’ve often wondered of Jimmy would rather have had (speaking purely in terms of on-table success) Stuart Bingham’s career than his own, or even Graeme Dott’s. Same with Ding - though I still live in hope for him!

I used to detest the term Triple Crown for that very reason, particularly when the UK format has changed so much so as to dilute its significance over any other ranking event. Yet here I am now using TC as a valid measure of ranking the greats. I don’t know, WC is what really matters at the end of the day. I don’t honestly think Jimmy would change anything. He’s enjoyed his life and he can take satisfaction from the affection with which he’s held with the people. Absolutely bang on, with the greatest respect to Bingham and Dott, they don’t remotely match Jimmy’s popular standing in history.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

TheRocket wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White

I like this but I’d make a couple of observations. Interesting that you include Reardon yet Spencer is nowhere to be seen. Although Ray had 6 WC to Spencer’s 3, there was very little between them from 1965 and throughout the 70’s. Thorburn/Griffiths could also feature in your Tier 4.


The Tier list I posted there is not complete. Just wanted to mention a few names how it would about look like. As it was about Selby vs Robbo, Selby for me is a clear Tier 2 player while Robbo 3.

If I wanted to include everyone thats ever played then the list would be obviously much longer. Someone like Griffiths and Thorburn would be Tier 4. Joe Davis I'd put on 2, Spencer 3. But its tough to compare eras of course.

I like your list more with Joe, Spencer etc included. Fred also.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:I still think the CoC is well on its way to being something of a fourth major if it sticks around. And you could argue that if it hadn’t been subsumed into the Home Nations, the Welsh Open already could be, particularly with more support from non-Wales BBC.

The CoC is a brilliant event. :D

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Empire State Human

Steve Davis has often said he placed more importance on ranking events - perhaps the reason why he only won 2 Masters titles in the 80’s when he was dominating everything else.

'To me the Masters is just a money tournament. There's no prestige except the money.

'If you get beat in a ranking tournament, you're devastated. If you get beat in the Benson's, you get beat'
- Steve Davis.

'Open' tournaments rather than invitationals were the rage in the 1980s. It was a big deal to play in tournaments open to everyone - you'd play the in-form players that week. Many of them carried bigger prizes than the Masters. And some like the British Open and Mercantile Classic had prime-time TV slots. I think this was partly a reaction against the 'closed shop' of the professional ranks. More players were turning pro, and anything that changed up the static ranking list, based on 3 years' worth of World Championship performances, and which favoured the old guard, was seen as important and properly competitive. You could argue that ranking events were the 'Triple Crowns' of the 1980s. :redneck:

Hearn threatened to withhold Davis from the 1984 UK Championship unless it was turned into a ranking event (which it was duly was).

Even by 1994, the Masters wasn't that big of a deal. The final between McManus and Hendry wasn't shown live. The evening session was televised as highlights on BBC 2 in the 10:35pm - 12:10am slot. This changed though in the next couple of years. The Davis v O'Sullivan final was certainly shown live.

There were some interesting comments by Fergal O'Brien on a Snooker Scene podcast a while ago. While Fergal acknowledged he'd lost a 'big' final against Hunter in 2001, the idea that it was the second or third most important title in the game would've seemed ludicrous to them.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby shanew48

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Iranu wrote:Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

To be fair, Robbo could easily leapfrog White and Alex. Jimmy did reach 5 consecutive World Championship finals though and was a huge figure at the game throughout the 80’s and 90’s. I’m reluctant to push Trump too high until he has the titles to back it up. All the greats admit it’s the TC titles that count at the end of one’s career and he’s still only won 3 TC events and only reached 2 finals at the Crucible. I know you can argue Robbo has only reached one WC final but he has won double the number of TC’s Trump has.


Robertson is 8 or 9 years older than Trump though so can't really Judge until they have both finished playing, if Trump plays on for another 10/12/15 years then you would imagine that he should end up with more TC's than Robertson and most other players bar Hendry, Ronnie and davis.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

shanew48 wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
Iranu wrote:Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

To be fair, Robbo could easily leapfrog White and Alex. Jimmy did reach 5 consecutive World Championship finals though and was a huge figure at the game throughout the 80’s and 90’s. I’m reluctant to push Trump too high until he has the titles to back it up. All the greats admit it’s the TC titles that count at the end of one’s career and he’s still only won 3 TC events and only reached 2 finals at the Crucible. I know you can argue Robbo has only reached one WC final but he has won double the number of TC’s Trump has.


Robertson is 8 or 9 years older than Trump though so can't really Judge until they have both finished playing, if Trump plays on for another 10/12/15 years then you would imagine that he should end up with more TC's than Robertson and most other players bar Hendry, Ronnie and davis.

You would think things may get easier for Trump as well, as the Co92 get older/retire and Selby, Robbo, Murphy all enter their 40’s. There isn’t that much coming through besides the China contingent.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby SnookerFan

Robertson has to win the World Championships several more times for there to be a comparison.

I get what has been discussed lately that The Crucible doesn't really suit the way he plays. And though I have some sympathy, it's just kind of tough luck. The conditions are the same for everybody, and you can't move the location of the biggest tournament in the year from such an iconic venue just because one person doesn't like playing it.

Selby has won everything that needs to be won to prove his greatness several times. Being able to adapt to bad conditions is an important marker as anything surely.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby McManusFan

SnookerFan wrote:Robertson has to win the World Championships several more times for there to be a comparison.

I get what has been discussed lately that The Crucible doesn't really suit the way he plays. And though I have some sympathy, it's just kind of tough luck. The conditions are the same for everybody, and you can't move the location of the biggest tournament in the year from such an iconic venue just because one person doesn't like playing it.

Selby has won everything that needs to be won to prove his greatness several times. Being able to adapt to bad conditions is an important marker as anything surely.


Yes. To make a tennis analogy (I'm so sorry, I don't even like tennis, why am I doing this!?), it's would be like a player complaining about the grass at Wimbledon, and wanting it to be covered in clay.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby SnookerFan

McManusFan wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Robertson has to win the World Championships several more times for there to be a comparison.

I get what has been discussed lately that The Crucible doesn't really suit the way he plays. And though I have some sympathy, it's just kind of tough luck. The conditions are the same for everybody, and you can't move the location of the biggest tournament in the year from such an iconic venue just because one person doesn't like playing it.

Selby has won everything that needs to be won to prove his greatness several times. Being able to adapt to bad conditions is an important marker as anything surely.


Yes. To make a tennis analogy (I'm so sorry, I don't even like tennis, why am I doing this!?), it's would be like a player complaining about the grass at Wimbledon, and wanting it to be covered in clay.


I'll allow it.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby SnookerEd25

SnookerFan wrote:
McManusFan wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Robertson has to win the World Championships several more times for there to be a comparison.

I get what has been discussed lately that The Crucible doesn't really suit the way he plays. And though I have some sympathy, it's just kind of tough luck. The conditions are the same for everybody, and you can't move the location of the biggest tournament in the year from such an iconic venue just because one person doesn't like playing it.

Selby has won everything that needs to be won to prove his greatness several times. Being able to adapt to bad conditions is an important marker as anything surely.


Yes. To make a tennis analogy (I'm so sorry, I don't even like tennis, why am I doing this!?), it's would be like a player complaining about the grass at Wimbledon, and wanting it to be covered in clay.


I'll allow it.


Seconded.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Ck147

SnookerEd25 wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
McManusFan wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Robertson has to win the World Championships several more times for there to be a comparison.

I get what has been discussed lately that The Crucible doesn't really suit the way he plays. And though I have some sympathy, it's just kind of tough luck. The conditions are the same for everybody, and you can't move the location of the biggest tournament in the year from such an iconic venue just because one person doesn't like playing it.

Selby has won everything that needs to be won to prove his greatness several times. Being able to adapt to bad conditions is an important marker as anything surely.


Yes. To make a tennis analogy (I'm so sorry, I don't even like tennis, why am I doing this!?), it's would be like a player complaining about the grass at Wimbledon, and wanting it to be covered in clay.


I'll allow it.


Seconded.

Thirded