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Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

gmg wrote:Thanks Chengdufan. Fair enough points mostly but by your own admission no ranking system is flawless so will always overestimate some and underestimate others. On that basis I make no apologies for my approach being solely based on anecdotal/ observational evidence even though I accept that I may be over/underestimating certain players myself. True, TV appearances could never be used as specific criteria in any ranking system but they do give some gauge of how players have fared under the severest of pressure. And the early system placed a heavy emphasis on this as (with the odd exception) players in the 70's and 80's only tended to earn ranking points if they reached the TV stages. So in that sense I do believe they have some relevance in such arguments.

Good points <ok>

gmg wrote:One thing I do disagree with is dismissing previous versions of the official ranking list as ‘codswallop’. Yes, they’ve often been far from perfect, particularly in the early days but in my view they’ve always done a reasonably good job at placing players in roughly the right positions and in that sense I think they've largely been useful overall.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this! :chuckle:

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 98
Name: Marcus Campbell
d.o.b. 22/09/1972
Place of birth Dumbarton, Scotland
Years as professional: 1991 - 2015

All-time ranking points: 348265

Number of days ranked: 7914
3650-day ranking range: 15-47
Highest rank: 15
Days at highest rank: 35 (14/11/2010 - 21/11/2010 | 24/07/2011 - 21/08/2011)
Age at highest rank: 38
Full ranking events played: 194
Minor ranking events played: 48
First event: 1992 Grand Prix (aged 20)
Last Event: 2015 World Championship (aged 42)
Best ranking finish: Semi-final - 2012 Wuxi Classic

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 623 - 1998 UK Championship
L134 w 5-2 v Chris Shade
L96 w 5-2 v Dean Reynolds
L64 w 9-0 v Stephen Hendry
L32 w 9-5 v Quinten Hann
L16 l 7-9 v Steve Davis

2. 521 - 2010 European PTC Event 3
L128 w 4-1 v Stephane Ochoiski
L64 w 4-1 v Mark Joyce
L32 w 4-2 v Kyren Wilson
L16 w 4-1 v Robert Milkins
QF w 4-1 v Judd Trump
SF w 4-3 v Ken Doherty
F w 4-0 v Liang Wenbo

3. 484 - 2007 Grand Prix
Qualifying group (L96)
w 4-1 v Robin Hull
w 4-1 v Ricky Walden
w 4-2 v John Parrott
l 2-4 v David Morris
w 4-0 v Steve Mifsud
w 4-0 v Martin Gould
l 1-4 v Munraj Pal

Group (L48)
w 4-3 v Fergal O'Brien
w 4-2 v Graeme Dott
l 0-4 v Ali Carter
w 4-3 v Anthony Hamilton
w 4-2 v Michael Holt

L16 l 2-5 v Joe Swail

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 97
Name: Ray Edmonds
d.o.b. 25/04/1936
Place of birth Grimsby, England
Years as professional: 1978 - 1997

All-time ranking points: 348708

Number of days ranked: 5033
3650-day ranking range: 16-60
Highest rank: 16
Days at highest rank: 741 (05/05/1980 - 16/05/1982)
Age at highest rank: 44-45
Full ranking events played: 80
First event: 1979 World Championship (aged 42-43)
Last Event: 1993 World Championship (aged 56-57)
Best ranking finish: Last 16 - 1988 Grand Prix

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 424 - 1985 World Championship
L64 w 10-3 v Robby Foldvari
L48 w 10-7 v Mark Wildman
L32 l 8-10 v Kirk Stevens

2. 422 - 1986 World Championship
L96 w 10-0 v Billy Kelly
L64 w 10-5 v Mike Darrington
L48 w 10-9 v Mark Wildman
L32 l 4-10 v Steve Davis

3. 382 - 1981 World Championship
L48 w 9-3 v Mark Wildman
L32 w 9-7 v Rex Williams
L24 l 9-10 v John Spencer

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

Ray Edmonds is one of the players who doesn't fit in the 17-50 age range for the ranking timeline, so I have added years at each end and made his graph from 25-57:

Image

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

Juddernaut88 wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:I never knew Rod Lawler reached a ranking final before.


You never asked :shrug:


I'll ask you next time if I have questions about certain players <ok>


I am amenable to answering your queries as regards certain players, 80s / 90s my speciality <ok>

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

With regards to GMG’s assertion that 80s/90s players’ television appearances had some correlation toward their abilities (or lack thereof), I would argue that it is not necessarily the case that appearances at the ‘televised stage’ had much that could be read into it. Many players did qualify for these stages on a (semi) regular basis but were still denied TV exposure because most Ranking Tournaments back then had multiple table set-ups, particularly in the early stages there could be up to six tables in play so many matches (players) were not seen at all. There was no blanket coverage back then; although a popular TV sport, live coverage was usually limited to weekday afternoons with one match being featured (usually the biggest name player), with other tables perhaps shown in snippets if the main match finished early.

Evening coverage was limited to a late night highlights programme (both for BBC and ITV), with even finals often being transmitted in this fashion. Even back then, with two-session semi-finals, they were often played out in a two table set-up with one given the bulk of the coverage and the other relegated to snippets as and when time allowed.

So many players did qualify for the ‘televised stages’, perhaps on a regular(ish) basis, but were still denied their moment in the TV spotlight by virtue of being drawn against an unfashionable player, and then eliminated.

Hope this makes sense…

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby gmg

Thanks Snookered25 but just to clarify that my argument about TV appearances relates to the 70’s & 80’s rather than the 80’s & 90’s . Up until 1982 the official ranking list was solely based on performances in recent World Championships and players had to reach at least the last-16 (which was televised from 1978 onwards) to pick up any actual points. The ranking tournament rota gradually expanded for the remainder of the 80’s but players still had to reach the last-32 at least to be awarded ranking points (merit points were awarded if they were eliminated prior to this). There were occasions where players could earn points without appearing on TV. For instance, the 1982 & 83 Professional Players Tournament (forerunner to the Rothmans Grand Prix) weren’t televised (which explains why Joe Johnson rose up the official list despite not winning a televised ranking match until 1985) and some ranking tournaments were only televised from the last-16 onwards so players who were beaten in the last-32 could have picked up points without ever appearing on TV. But for the most part they had to appear on TV to earn points. And I actually think that was a reasonably fair assessment at the time, at least in the public's eyes.

Btw, outside of the World Championship, the two-table format only became a standard feature of TV coverage from the mid-80’s onwards (as late as 1987 in ITV’s case) and so for the most part players who reached the TV stages generally did appear on TV. But it's largely irrelevant anyway as they could never have known in advance how much of their match would be televised until it was actually broadcast so there would have been no less pressure on them because of it.

I agree completely, though, that things were different in the 90's, especially when Sky started covering ranking tournaments that included several non-TV tables and when the points system itself changed so that players could earn decent points without ever reaching the TV stages.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby Yanfan

chengdufan wrote:Ray Edmonds is one of the players who doesn't fit in the 17-50 age range for the ranking timeline, so I have added years at each end and made his graph from 25-57:

Image

I know the name Ray Edmonds because an old chap at the club once told me that he had watched him play a lot of really good amateur matches with Jonathan Barron.


Jonathan Barron was from Cornwall and he only lived about 20 miles away from me.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby badtemperedcyril

Ray Edmonds will be chiefly known by many as a leading commentator for many years for BBC and ITV. On the table though, was one of the best players around in the 60’s and 70’s. By the time he took the plunge and turned pro he was in his 40’s - his success didn’t match that of his amateur career but he did win the World Professional Billiards title. He won the World Amateur Championship twice at a time when the standard of the amateur game was almost as good as the professionals. He’s something of a legend around the Grimsby area, a hotbed of snooker talent (Sid Hood, Mike Hallett, Dean Reynolds all hail from there), and ran the Ray Edmonds Snooker Centre in the town, now under his sons stewardship since Ray retired and moved to Spain.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

gmg wrote:Thanks Snookered25 but just to clarify that my argument about TV appearances relates to the 70’s & 80’s rather than the 80’s & 90’s . Up until 1982 the official ranking list was solely based on performances in recent World Championships and players had to reach at least the last-16 (which was televised from 1978 onwards) to pick up any actual points. The ranking tournament rota gradually expanded for the remainder of the 80’s but players still had to reach the last-32 at least to be awarded ranking points (merit points were awarded if they were eliminated prior to this). There were occasions where players could earn points without appearing on TV. For instance, the 1982 & 83 Professional Players Tournament (forerunner to the Rothmans Grand Prix) weren’t televised (which explains why Joe Johnson rose up the official list despite not winning a televised ranking match until 1985) and some ranking tournaments were only televised from the last-16 onwards so players who were beaten in the last-32 could have picked up points without ever appearing on TV. But for the most part they had to appear on TV to earn points. And I actually think that was a reasonably fair assessment at the time, at least in the public's eyes.

Btw, outside of the World Championship, the two-table format only became a standard feature of TV coverage from the mid-80’s onwards (as late as 1987 in ITV’s case) and so for the most part players who reached the TV stages generally did appear on TV. But it's largely irrelevant anyway as they could never have known in advance how much of their match would be televised until it was actually broadcast so there would have been no less pressure on them because of it.

I agree completely, though, that things were different in the 90's, especially when Sky started covering ranking tournaments that included several non-TV tables and when the points system itself changed so that players could earn decent points without ever reaching the TV stages.


Fair point, GMG, and well made sir <ok>

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 96
Name: Barry Pinches
d.o.b. 13/07/1970
Place of birth Norwich, England
Years as professional: 1989 - 1997 | 1998 - 2016 | 2019 - Present
Current rank: 116

All-time ranking points: 350136

Number of days ranked: 10157
3650-day ranking range: 12-55
Highest rank: 12
Days at highest rank: 56 (28/11/2004 - 23/01/2005)
Age at highest rank: 34
Full ranking events played: 262
Minor ranking events played: 60
First event: 1989 Hong Kong Open (aged 19)
Best ranking finish: Quarter Final x2 - 2003 UK Championship | 2005 Grand Prix

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 784 - 2004 World Championship
L64 w 10-7 v Ding Junhui
L48 w 10-2 v Tony Drago
L32 w 10-8 v Jimmy White
L16 l 12-13 v Stephen Hendry

2. 641 - 2003 UK Championship
L64 w 9-5 v Neil Robertson
L48 w 9-1 v Marco Fu
L32 w 9-6 v Graeme Dott
L16 w 9-6 v Stephen Lee
QF l 3-9 v Stephen Hendry

3. 521 - 2010 PTC Event 4
L128 w 4-0 v Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon
L64 w 4-2 v Chen Zhe
L32 w 4-0 v Jak Jones
L16 w 4-1 v Matthew Selt
QF w 4-2 v Liu Song
SF w 4-1 v Mark Williams
F w 4-3 v Ronnie O'Sullivan

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

Barry Pinches ranking timeline (from age 19-52 rather than 17-50):

Image

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby badtemperedcyril

SnookerEd25 wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:I never knew Rod Lawler reached a ranking final before.


You never asked :shrug:


I'll ask you next time if I have questions about certain players <ok>


I am amenable to answering your queries as regards certain players, 80s / 90s my speciality <ok>

I can do any players before!

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby gmg

Crikey, I'm going to have an even bigger rant next time round. Already amazed by 4 of the first 5 who've made it into the top 100!

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

gmg wrote:Crikey, I'm going to have an even bigger rant next time round. Already amazed by 4 of the first 5 who've made it into the top 100!

rofl

I agree, pretty shocking to have some of these guys on a top 100 list. They have all been close to the top 16 at some point in their career, but still.

Up to the up and coming players to knock them down...

By the way, it's the top 50 exactly who have averaged a top 16 spot or better for ten years.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby Juddernaut88

I do remember Stephen Hendry and Barry Pinches meeting twice in the 2003/2004 season. Hendry beat Pinches convincingly in the 2003 UK championship but the world championship last 16 in 2004 went to a decider!

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby The_Abbott

Juddernaut88 wrote:Jamie Burnett the forgotten man.


anyone know why he did suddenly disappear midway through a season?

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

The_Abbott wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:Jamie Burnett the forgotten man.


anyone know why he did suddenly disappear midway through a season?


Think he just said he’d fallen out of love with the game; had enough, basically.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby LDS

gmg wrote:Crikey, I'm going to have an even bigger rant next time round. Already amazed by 4 of the first 5 who've made it into the top 100!


Yes, you'd be surprised how high some rank compared to their name recognition.

Don't worry though, we're now into the strong journeyman stage of the list, you know, going through the Dene O'kanes and David Roes of the world for about 25 odd places before things start being a lot more all-round-famous.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

LDS wrote:
gmg wrote:Crikey, I'm going to have an even bigger rant next time round. Already amazed by 4 of the first 5 who've made it into the top 100!


Yes, you'd be surprised how high some rank compared to their name recognition.

Don't worry though, we're now into the strong journeyman stage of the list, you know, going through the Dene O'kanes and David Roes of the world for about 25 odd places before things start being a lot more all-round-famous.

What position do you predict O'Kane and Roe will end up, LDS?

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby LDS

Hmm, good question.

Well O'Kane is no.89 on my WSC list, so subtract 10-15 for all the oldies who wont be on your list & I'd guess maybe about No.77

David Roe is No.98 on my WSC list, but he did hang around the top 16 for a few years, so maybe better generally, perhaps about No.82

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby badtemperedcyril

LDS wrote:Hmm, good question.

Well O'Kane is no.89 on my WSC list, so subtract 10-15 for all the oldies who wont be on your list & I'd guess maybe about No.77

David Roe is No.98 on my WSC list, but he did hang around the top 16 for a few years, so maybe better generally, perhaps about No.82
Dene was twice a Crucible quarter finalist but never reached the (official) top-16.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 95
Name: Ben Woollaston
d.o.b. 14/05/1987
Place of birth: Leicester, England
Years as professional: 2004 - 2005 | 2006 - 2008 | 2009 - Present
Current rank: 33

All-time ranking points: 351075

Number of days ranked: 6174
3650-day ranking range: 20-50
Highest rank: 20
Days at highest rank: 18 (06/10/2013 - 24/10/2013)
Age at highest rank: 26
Full ranking events played: 173
Minor ranking events played: 63
First event: 2004 Grand Prix (aged 17)
Best ranking finish: Runner Up - 2015 Welsh Open

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 600 - 2015 Welsh Open
L128 w 4-2 v Thanawat Thirapongpaiboon
L64 w 4-1 v Mark Davis
L32 w 4-3 v Mark Allen
L16 w 4-2 v Ali Carter
QF w 5-2 v Gary Wilson
SF w 6-5 v Mark Williams
F l 3-9 v John Higgins

2. 533 - 2011 PTC Event 3
L128 w 4-1 v Rod Lawler
L64 w 4-3 v Kurt Maflin
L32 w 4-2 v Andrew Higginson
L16 w 4-0 v Ken Doherty
QF w 4-3 v Alan McManus
SF w 4-0 v Anthony McGill
F w 4-2 v Graeme Dott

3. 384 - 2019 China Open
L128 w 6-1 v Li Yuan
L64 w 6-4 v Ashley Carty
L32 w 6-3 v Andrew Higginson
L16 w 6-4 v Lyu Haotian
QF l 4-6 v Scott Donaldson

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby gmg

LDS wrote:[quote="gmg"

Yes, you'd be surprised how high some rank compared to their name recognition.

Don't worry though, we're now into the strong journeyman stage of the list, you know, going through the Dene O'kanes and David Roes of the world for about 25 odd places before things start being a lot more all-round-famous.


Yes, no sign of the likes of Wayne Jones, Warren King or Jim Wych yet either who I presume have also all made it into the top 100 against expectations.

The only non-surprise in this top 100 so far for me is Peter Francisco but I guess he may well have ended up higher had he not received a career ending ban in 1995.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby The_Abbott

gmg wrote:
LDS wrote:[quote="gmg"

Yes, you'd be surprised how high some rank compared to their name recognition.

Don't worry though, we're now into the strong journeyman stage of the list, you know, going through the Dene O'kanes and David Roes of the world for about 25 odd places before things start being a lot more all-round-famous.


Yes, no sign of the likes of Wayne Jones, Warren King or Jim Wych yet either who I presume have also all made it into the top 100 against expectations.

The only non-surprise in this top 100 so far for me is Peter Francisco but I guess he may well have ended up higher had he not received a career ending ban in 1995.


I don't think we have seen Silvino Francisco yet have we? I'm still annoyed at him not turning up to Butlins back in 1985. We got some unknown chump called Steve Davis instead >-(

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby badtemperedcyril

LDS wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:Dene was twice a Crucible quarter finalist but never reached the (official) top-16.


So you think he'll be ranked...?

For sure. He reached a ranking event final and numerous other semi and quarter finals.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby gmg

[quote="The_Abbott"

I don't think we have seen Silvino Francisco yet have we? I'm still annoyed at him not turning up to Butlins back in 1985. We got some unknown chump called Steve Davis instead >-([/quote]


Ha, sure there weren't too many complaints about that! I'd imagine it will be another 2-3 weeks before we see Silvino on the list. He was a ranking event winner and achieved quite a bit more than Peter overall during his career.


   

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