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Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:english pronunciations are driven by the root of the words, though correct for greek derived words like xylophone, people wouldn't use the /z/ for x in spanish or basque like xerez or xabi alonso (eg).


Just going back to this briefly, you sent me on a very interesting journey.

If you type Xu Si's name, as written in Chinese, into a google translate for ANY European country, it comes back Xu Si. However, and this is where it gets really good:

If you type it into Chinese to Greek, it comes back as Xu = Zou (with Zhou as optional, ring any bells?).

If you then type Zou or Zhou in the Greek to English translator you get = Zu.

And, yes, the Greek do pronounce the Zed as Zee.


i'd think there is a different system for transliterating chinese to greek. since greek uses a different alphabet. i got Σιου Σι when i tried just now.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

HappyCamper wrote:i have already expanded on the point that it an established system that demonstrably does help, and is used as standard in teaching mandarin as a second language. it's more 'that's the way it is, if it ain't broke...'.
the x has no precise equivalent in english, but it's pretty close to how x would be in some iberian languages, hence probably why it was chosen. this quite accessible to most native english speakers. is it perfect, maybe not. there likely can't be a perfect solution.


I can assure you Iberian is not something that is common to English speakers.

And, yes, we do agree on something at last, there's no perfect solution. However, correcting people for using the correct pronunciation of written English is, in fact, incorrect. Which I'm glad you understand as you do indeed note that the same spelled words can indeed be pronounced very differently.

Would it be ok, you know, acceptable, you know, pedant-proof, if we agree that since the original phonetics of the word are unpronounceable unwriteable to an English person, then can we all accept and agree that the English person can say the name however their local dialect would normally say that band of letters? And accept that? You know, like we all accept Irish people don't do the whole TH sound thing? Like how saying Cliff Torburn is fine when Ken says it, just as it's fine if Walker says Zoo instead of Goo or Shoe or whatever the F else?

HappyCamper wrote:when people point out how you're wrong.


You're not pointing out I'm wrong, you're trying to imply a status-quo invalidates objection. Which is wrong ;-)

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:i have already expanded on the point that it an established system that demonstrably does help, and is used as standard in teaching mandarin as a second language. it's more 'that's the way it is, if it ain't broke...'.
the x has no precise equivalent in english, but it's pretty close to how x would be in some iberian languages, hence probably why it was chosen. this quite accessible to most native english speakers. is it perfect, maybe not. there likely can't be a perfect solution.


I can assure you Iberian is not something that is common to English speakers.


spanish is a commonly taught modern languages in uk schools. the iberian peninsula is one of the biggest overseas holiday destinations from the uk. they are indo-european languages using the same alphabet etc. there are significant spainsh influence in the art such as operas in spanish or multiple recent chart hits. so actually yes, accessible.

And, yes, we do agree on something at last, there's no perfect solution. However, correcting people for using the correct pronunciation of written English is, in fact, incorrect. Which I'm glad you understand as you do indeed note that the same spelled words can indeed be pronounced very differently.


you said that hanyu pinyin doesn't work and should be changed because it does not correspond to one particular possible pronunciation you had in mind. this makes no sense given there would be multiple valid pronunciations of those combinations of letters as written in english anyway.

Would it be ok, you know, acceptable, you know, pedant-proof, if we agree that since the original phonetics of the word are unpronounceable unwriteable to an English person, then can we all accept and agree that the English person can say the name however their local dialect would normally say that band of letters? And accept that? You know, like we all accept Irish people don't do the whole TH sound thing? Like how saying Cliff Torburn is fine when Ken says it, just as it's fine if Walker says Zoo instead of Goo or Shoe or whatever the F else?


not everyone can pronounce every foreign word. shocking i know. as long as they communicate clearly and respectfully it's not an issue to say things coloured by their natural voice. i don't think anyone really expects otherwise, certainly i don't.

it would be incorrect to claim 'torburn' is a, let alone only, correct pronunciation.

HappyCamper wrote:when people point out how you're wrong.


You're not pointing out I'm wrong, you're trying to imply a status-quo invalidates objection. Which is wrong ;-)


no i have neither said nor implied any such thing. i have said that we do not need to change a status quo that work due to invalid objections. i also explained what i felt was wrong with those objections.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

HappyCamper wrote:spanish is a commonly taught modern languages in uk schools. the iberian peninsula is one of the biggest overseas holiday destinations from the uk. they are indo-european languages using the same alphabet etc. there are significant spainsh influence in the art such as operas in spanish or multiple recent chart hits. so actually yes, accessible.


What a stretch!

HappyCamper wrote:you said that hanyu pinyin doesn't work and should be changed because it does not correspond to one particular possible pronunciation you had in mind. this makes no sense given there would be multiple valid pronunciations of those combinations of letters as written in english anyway.


Exactly, you can't on the one hand argue that strings of letters don't always have the same pronunciation while at the same time demanding a precise pronunciation of a set string of letters. That is why people don't usually bother being pedantic with pronunciation pedantry, it's a pointless paradox. Some people seem to think that names are an exception though, something to take personally, which is a paradox within a paradox, because names are inextricably linked to regional languages and dialects.

However, when you regularly speak words in a community you develop what is termed 'common-sense'. People copy each other, making communication easier within the clique but at the same time more complex for those outside that clique. Just human nature. And so when an English person sees the word Xu or Zhou they will read that word as Zoo, because it conforms to their clique-speak, making communication easier within the clique. If you feel it's important to bugger-that-up for the sake of pedantry to a system that is outside the clique then more fool you.

When we're all speaking Chinese or Hindi or German or Brazilian or whatever becomes the new language of trade in the next one or two hundred years, feel free to come back and laugh at me ;-)

HappyCamper wrote:not everyone can pronounce every foreign word. shocking i know. as long as they communicate clearly and respectfully it's not an issue to say things coloured by their natural voice. i don't think anyone really expects otherwise, certainly i don't.

it would be incorrect to claim 'torburn' is a, let alone only, correct pronunciation.


You are right, it's not a 'correct' pronunciation, but it's acceptable, glad you agree. We're getting somewhere at last!

HappyCamper wrote:no i have neither said nor implied any such thing. i have said that we do not need to change a status quo that work due to invalid objections. i also explained what i felt was wrong with those objections.


It quite clearly doesn't work, and, no, you can't just say the objections are invalid, that's not how it works. Yes, you had quite a laughable string of reasons why you didn't like the objections. The situation is still the same though, the current system is not fit for purpose.
Last edited by LDS on 01 Jun 2021, edited 2 times in total.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby Pink Ball

LDS wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Can anyone here speak Irish?


Doubt it. I think Pink Ball might though, you could ask him. Happycamper's probably your best bet, he knows a bit about most things ;-)

Better than knowing nothing about most things I suppose.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

Pink Ball wrote:
LDS wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Can anyone here speak Irish?


Doubt it. I think Pink Ball might though, you could ask him. Happycamper's probably your best bet, he knows a bit about most things ;-)

Better than knowing nothing about most things I suppose.


Don't be like that, I think you sometimes provide good insightful posts. Don't do yourself down.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:spanish is a commonly taught modern languages in uk schools. the iberian peninsula is one of the biggest overseas holiday destinations from the uk. they are indo-european languages using the same alphabet etc. there are significant spainsh influence in the art such as operas in spanish or multiple recent chart hits. so actually yes, accessible.


What a stretch!


what is a stretch? what do you think makes spanish (for example) inaccessible to a typical english speaking brit?

HappyCamper wrote:you said that hanyu pinyin doesn't work and should be changed because it does not correspond to one particular possible pronunciation you had in mind. this makes no sense given there would be multiple valid pronunciations of those combinations of letters as written in english anyway.


Exactly, you can't on the one hand argue that strings of letters don't always have the same pronunciation while at the same time demanding a precise pronunciation of a set string of letters


yes. so stop insisting on 'zoo see' then!

That is why people don't usually bother being pedantic with pronunciation pedantry, it's a pointless paradox. Some people seem to think that names are an exception though, something to take personally, which is a paradox within a paradox, because names are inextricably linked to regional languages and dialects.


i think you may have favoured alliteration over clarity here. nevertheless i'd say the reason for generally, with proper names, being as true as reasonable to the native tongue, is because they are in some sense unique and tied to the person or place's identity. names are personal, that kind of their point!

it's not always consistent especially with geography and there are historically differences, like saying napoli as opposed to naples could be consider overly affected. but if you were to insist on calling colin powell by the 'normal' pronunciation of colin rather than 'coe-lin' then that would be rather strange and a bit rude.

However, when you regularly speak words in a community you develop what is termed 'common-sense'. People copy each other, making communication easier within the clique but at the same time more complex for those outside that clique. Just human nature. And so when an English person sees the word Xu or Zhou they will read that word as Zoo, because it conforms to their clique-speak, making communication easier within the clique. If you feel it's important to bugger-that-up for the sake of pedantry to a system that is outside the clique then more fool you.


are you saying that both xu and zhou would be likely read as 'zoo'. i'm not sure that is correct, most people would at least think of them as distinct in some way. i've heard 'tsoo' or 'shoo' or similar as much as 'zoo' for the former. at work i've heard a lot of stray attempts at guangzhou (and committed a few myself).

When we're all speaking Chinese or Hindi or German or Brazilian or whatever becomes the new language of trade in the next one or two hundred years, feel free to come back and laugh at me ;-)


i think we'll be dead by then.

HappyCamper wrote:not everyone can pronounce every foreign word. shocking i know. as long as they communicate clearly and respectfully it's not an issue to say things coloured by their natural voice. i don't think anyone really expects otherwise, certainly i don't.

it would be incorrect to claim 'torburn' is a, let alone only, correct pronunciation.


You are right, it's not a 'correct' pronunciation, but it's acceptable, glad you agree. We're getting somewhere at last!


i sometimes am!

HappyCamper wrote:no i have neither said nor implied any such thing. i have said that we do not need to change a status quo that work due to invalid objections. i also explained what i felt was wrong with those objections.


It quite clearly doesn't work, and, no, you can't just say the objections are invalid, that's not how it works. Yes, you had quite a laughable string of reasons why you didn't like the objections. The situation is still the same though, the current system is not fit for purpose.


it is not clear that it doesn't work. i have not just said they are invalid, i have explained why. you have been unable to offer any rebuttal.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Can anyone here speak Irish?


Doubt it. I think Pink Ball might though, you could ask him. Happycamper's probably your best bet, he knows a bit about most things ;-)


i do not speak irish. i assume it's a bit like scottish gaelic? though i don't speak that either.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

HappyCamper wrote:i think you may have favoured alliteration over clarity here. nevertheless i'd say the reason for generally, with proper names, being as true as reasonable to the native tongue, is because they are in some sense unique and tied to the person or place's identity. names are personal, that kind of their point!


The vast majority of people have never named themselves. People tend to prefer whatever they're used to, unless it's especially insidious. That's why you get: William, Bill, Billy, Will, Willie, Willy, etc. You think Gazza woke up one day and started telling everyone to call him Gazza? Or you think maybe he got all hot and bothered because no-one called him Paul [Long, awkwardly spelled French name]?

HappyCamper wrote:it is not clear that it doesn't work. i have not just said they are invalid, i have explained why. you have been unable to offer any rebuttal.


It is quite clear why it doesn't work, as has been adequately explained.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:i think you may have favoured alliteration over clarity here. nevertheless i'd say the reason for generally, with proper names, being as true as reasonable to the native tongue, is because they are in some sense unique and tied to the person or place's identity. names are personal, that kind of their point!


The vast majority of people have never named themselves. People tend to prefer whatever they're used to, unless it's especially insidious. That's why you get: William, Bill, Billy, Will, Willie, Willy, etc. You think Gazza woke up one day and started telling everyone to call him Gazza? Or you think maybe he got all hot and bothered because no-one called him Paul [Long, awkwardly spelled French name]?


i don't know how gascoigne got his nickname. at a guess it just arose organically from his interactions with his mates using a diminutive form of his surname. if he didn't like it he could simply say 'please don't call me gazza i don't like that name'. i remember he did once say he wanted to be called g8 (pronounced great) though that might not have been entirely serious.

HappyCamper wrote:it is not clear that it doesn't work. i have not just said they are invalid, i have explained why. you have been unable to offer any rebuttal.


It is quite clear why it doesn't work, as has been adequately explained.


lmfao, still going.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

HappyCamper wrote:i don't know how gascoigne got his nickname. at a guess


Well don't talk about things you know nothing about then?

HappyCamper wrote:lmfao, still going.


lmfao, still going.

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby HappyCamper

LDS wrote:
HappyCamper wrote:i don't know how gascoigne got his nickname. at a guess


Well don't talk about things you know nothing about then?



you asked the question. i answered. i do not know nothing, i speculated based on experience with other similar nicknames.

maybe you should take your own advice. though i'm sure it would be difficult for you never to be able to say anything.

HappyCamper wrote:lmfao, still going.


lmfao, still going.


:penguin:

Re: The Hendry Comeback

Postby LDS

HappyCamper wrote:maybe you should take your own advice.


But that's the thing, I do know a lot about my own culture. I will freely admit I'm not expert or even knowledgeable about an awful lot of other cultures in the world, but when a foreign culture clashes with my own, then, yes, I feel sure I would have as much to say on the topic as the person representing that foreign culture? Or are you suggesting one culture has less validity in the conversation than another?