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Who is greater?

Selby
10
59%
Williams
7
41%
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby TheRocket

unfortunately yes. If Williams was significantly ahead in other departments like ranking titles or TC titles I'd still give him an edge but he is not. He is in fact 2 TC titles behind Selby and even though he won 2 more rankers than Selby that probably wont last too long.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby mick745

The world championship record separates the great players from the greatest players. Selby's 4 surpasses Williams 3 but Selby has a slightly better TC record overall anyway.

Selby is also the only player to defeat O'Sullivan in the final of all three of the TC events.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Kargetina

World Championship

Selby 4
Williams 3

Triple Crown

Selby 9
Williams 7

Ranking Titles

Selby 20
Williams 23

Head-To-Head

Selby 22
Williams 17

Centuries made

Selby 693 (14.1 frames per century)
Williams 523 (23 frames per century)

Career Win %

Selby 68.2%
Williams 64.4%

If both retired today, Selby has unquestionably had the better career. The only category Williams has over Selby is having 3 more ranking titles, but considering their age, it's a matter of when not if Selby surpasses him there too.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Johnny Bravo

Kargetina wrote:World Championship

Selby 4
Williams 3

Triple Crown

Selby 9
Williams 7

Ranking Titles

Selby 20
Williams 23

Head-To-Head

Selby 22
Williams 17

Centuries made

Selby 693 (14.1 frames per century)
Williams 523 (23 frames per century)

Career Win %

Selby 68.2%
Williams 64.4%

If both retired today, Selby has unquestionably had the better career. The only category Williams has over Selby is having 3 more ranking titles, but considering their age, it's a matter of when not if Selby surpasses him there too.

You have not taken into account the fact that it was harder for Williams to win his titles.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Dragonfly

While I do accept that Selby has surpassed Williams, one statistic I would not pay any attention to is amount of centuries made.

Particularly early in his career Williams on many occasions would get to a break of 70 odd and then lose interest. He didn't chase centuries and just wanted to get on with the next frame.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Pink Ball

Williams is still ahead for me, albeit very marginally. The competition he faced in his peak was tougher than the competition Selby faced. That said, it's only a matter of time before Selby does put it beyond doubt. There's only going to be one winner from here, and it isn't Williams.

Head to head is pretty meaningless in this context. How often did they play each other when Williams was at his peak, and how often have they played when Selby was at his peak? Centuries are also of no relevance. Williams wasn't the best at making century breaks but he tailored his game perfectly to counteract that. And even when he was in a position to hit tons, he often didn't give a buck about completing them, was happy to play a wild shot and get on to the next frame. He was always a bit odd that way.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Wildey

For me now Selby is 4th Greatest behind Ronnie, Hendry and Higgins.

1 Ronnie O'Sullivan
2 Stephen Hendry
3 John Higgins
4 Mark Selby
5 Mark Williams
6 Steve Davis
7 Judd Trump
8 Ray Reardon
9 Neil Robertson
10 Jimmy White

Judd Trump in the last 3 years has jumped high, but there's a few categories hes lacking as World no 1 i feel he needs to address before he can ever get in to the top 6.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Acé

woah no way, even I wouldn't put Judd up that high and that's saying something he's not above Reardon and hate to say it, Robertson atm

also Davis deserves more respect around these parts to the point Judd cannot be the next player in line below Steve Davis in a all-time great list lol, 6x bloody WC champion

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby mick745

Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Holden Chinaski

Wildey wrote:For me now Selby is 4th Greatest behind Ronnie, Hendry and Higgins.

1 Ronnie O'Sullivan
2 Stephen Hendry
3 John Higgins
4 Mark Selby
5 Mark Williams
6 Steve Davis
7 Judd Trump
8 Ray Reardon
9 Neil Robertson
10 Jimmy White

Judd Trump in the last 3 years has jumped high, but there's a few categories hes lacking as World no 1 i feel he needs to address before he can ever get in to the top 6.

Selby better than Steve Davis and Judd better than Reardon? That's insane. Davis and Reardon completely dominated, without any doubt. They dominated the big tournaments, it wasn't even close. Selby and Trump have not done that. Selby has done better than Trump in the big tournaments, a lot better, but not like Davis and Reardon did.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Andre147

mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.


Yep, pretty much agree with this.

The first group are just a cut above everyone else.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Iranu

Andre147 wrote:
mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.


Yep, pretty much agree with this.

The first group are just a cut above everyone else.

This always makes me feel like Reardon suffers from being just slightly pre-television era, at least in terms of proper coverage and exposure.

I don’t know enough but should he really be a bracket below Davis?

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Juddernaut88

My top 10 list is:
Ronnie O Sullivan
Stephen Hendry
Steve Davis
John Higgins
Ray Reardon
Mark Selby
Mark Williams
Alex Higgins
Judd Trump
Neil Robertson

Maybe I'm being a little biased putting Judd Trump above Robbo but it's all up for debate.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Wildey

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Wildey wrote:For me now Selby is 4th Greatest behind Ronnie, Hendry and Higgins.

1 Ronnie O'Sullivan
2 Stephen Hendry
3 John Higgins
4 Mark Selby
5 Mark Williams
6 Steve Davis
7 Judd Trump
8 Ray Reardon
9 Neil Robertson
10 Jimmy White

Judd Trump in the last 3 years has jumped high, but there's a few categories hes lacking as World no 1 i feel he needs to address before he can ever get in to the top 6.

Selby better than Steve Davis and Judd better than Reardon? That's insane. Davis and Reardon completely dominated, without any doubt. They dominated the big tournaments, it wasn't even close. Selby and Trump have not done that. Selby has done better than Trump in the big tournaments, a lot better, but not like Davis and Reardon did.

I Dont take tournament wins solely in to consideration and never have there's more to it than that.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Juddernaut88

If I was only going to focus on players I've actually watched properly then Reardon and Alex Higgins wouldn't be on my list of course. It would then be a question of which 2 players would get in instead. Possibly Jimmy White and Ding Junhui?

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Andre147

Iranu wrote:
Andre147 wrote:
mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.


Yep, pretty much agree with this.

The first group are just a cut above everyone else.

This always makes me feel like Reardon suffers from being just slightly pre-television era, at least in terms of proper coverage and exposure.

I don’t know enough but should he really be a bracket below Davis?


Reardon was great, but he really should be bellow Davis. Both were 6 time world champions, Davis a ball away from 7, but Davis won pretty much everything else there was to win, and he was first proper dedicated Snooker player. So O'Sullivan gets top spot for me (which will be cemented even more should he win a 7th world title), and then comes Hendry and Davis.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Wildey

The Game has changed considerably.

Before Hendry started racking up Centuries like he did nobody gave a stuff how many players made.

Ray Reardon only made about 60 in his career but possibly he leads the way in 40 breaks who knows

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Iranu

Wildey wrote:Ray Reardon only made about 60 in his career but possibly he leads the way in 40 breaks who knows

Murphy’s closed the gap considerably during the World Final.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Iranu

Andre147 wrote:Reardon was great, but he really should be bellow Davis. Both were 6 time world champions, Davis a ball away from 7, but Davis won pretty much everything else there was to win, and he was first proper dedicated Snooker player. So O'Sullivan gets top spot for me (which will be cemented even more should he win a 7th world title), and then comes Hendry and Davis.

I agree that he should be below Davis but in a separate bracket entirely? There were many fewer pro tournaments to win back in his day after all and I wonder if he’d have dominated as much had there been the same number of tournaments.

I wonder too if Spencer winning three world titles in the 70s has has an effect on how Reardon is viewed. The four titles that Davis didn’t win in the 80s were all won by different players so there was no one player who took a share of the dominance for that decade.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Wildey

TheRocket wrote:If Selby won a 5th World title would he be ahead of Higgins?

No


but he will be getting extremely close

of course if he won 5 in the next season including the World then we will have to re valuate things.


Selby's achievement of winning 5 ranking tournaments in a season 2016/2017 included both UK and World Championship you could say that Trumps Trump 6 in a season.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Dragonfly

Wildey wrote:
TheRocket wrote:If Selby won a 5th World title would he be ahead of Higgins?

No


but he will be getting extremely close

of course if he won 5 in the next season including the World then we will have to re valuate things.


Selby's achievement of winning 5 ranking tournaments in a season 2016/2017 included both UK and World Championship you could say that Trumps Trump 6 in a season.


I think if Selby wins a fifth and Higgins is stuck on 4 then yes, Selby will have surpassed him. Apart from the Worlds obviously being the most important statistic, Selby has won plenty of Masters etc as well.

I won't be surprised if Selby doesn't go far in a lot of the less important events next season. He is clearly vulnerable in the short matches. But he is a big occasion player and I definitely think he will more triple crown events.