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Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby cupotee

interesting lhpirnie about a global ranking list but you're probably aware haven't you visited the sheffield eis during wst events pro snooker tables are very exclusive and expensive , wouldn't it be a huge haul financially to get all these thousands of of people to play on wst tables , the difference between bog standard club tables to wst tables is huge like its a different game , even just for england itself it would be a huge slog to get hundreds of amateurs partipicating on pro tables , for example me being in the south east there's the dunstable club which has about 6 pro tables but thats about it , it seems more realistic just to pay directly to wst and make it profitable for them .

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby lhpirnie

cupotee wrote:interesting lhpirnie about a global ranking list but you're probably aware haven't you visited the sheffield eis during wst events pro snooker tables are very exclusive and expensive , wouldn't it be a huge haul financially to get all these thousands of of people to play on wst tables , the difference between bog standard club tables to wst tables is huge like its a different game , even just for england itself it would be a huge slog to get hundreds of amateurs partipicating on pro tables , for example me being in the south east there's the dunstable club which has about 6 pro tables but thats about it , it seems more realistic just to pay directly to wst and make it profitable for them .

They don't have to play on pro-standard tables at all. So long as it's 6x12 and green, it's a fair match.


Your regular Dunstable club championship could be ranked, just like the World Championship, or the Masters. Whoever wins gains ranking points from the loser, that's all.

Don't you think that would raise competitive standards? It has done in other games that I know. It would be great to be on the same ranking list as Ronnie O'Sullivan, for example.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:Well hopefully Kazoo is the first of many non-betting sponsors. They really have shown a huge commitment - a multi-year deal as the main sponsor of the Players Championship, Tour Championship and World Grand Prix.

Others are sure to follow suit. And why have they shown this commitment? Because of the increased viewing figures around the world due to Barry's growing of the sport.


It's Cazoo, genius.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby cupotee

lhpirnie wrote:
cupotee wrote:interesting lhpirnie about a global ranking list but you're probably aware haven't you visited the sheffield eis during wst events pro snooker tables are very exclusive and expensive , wouldn't it be a huge haul financially to get all these thousands of of people to play on wst tables , the difference between bog standard club tables to wst tables is huge like its a different game , even just for england itself it would be a huge slog to get hundreds of amateurs partipicating on pro tables , for example me being in the south east there's the dunstable club which has about 6 pro tables but thats about it , it seems more realistic just to pay directly to wst and make it profitable for them .

They don't have to play on pro-standard tables at all. So long as it's 6x12 and green, it's a fair match.


Your regular Dunstable club championship could be ranked, just like the World Championship, or the Masters. Whoever wins gains ranking points from the loser, that's all.

Don't you think that would raise competitive standards? It has done in other games that I know. It would be great to be on the same ranking list as Ronnie O'Sullivan, for example.


Ok but it would still be a huge slog financially and time duration to eventually get tables as good and as well maintained as those at the dunstable club ( deserved plug btw ) , and it would still surely take longer to get a stream of players good enough to make an impact , yes it would be a good incentive to be on the same ranking list as o sullivan but it still seems a little too disparate , there wouldn’t be much point in someone getting elected into a pro tournament from say the acton snooker club when their tables aren’t anything like pro tables , and if higher ranked players say only play at the dunstable club who decided them there anyway , isn’t that similar to why for example chris wakelin is a pro now because of his proximity to the atack club in nuneaton .
personally i’d just stick to paying wst directly and letting young players learn while getting upset and bruised losing on the job , i know you’d still have the problem of that being advantageous to english players who live nearer wst events but so be it , wst could still hold tournaments in other regions around the world too i guess .

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby lhpirnie

cupotee wrote:Ok but it would still be a huge slog financially and time duration to eventually get tables as good and as well maintained as those at the dunstable club ( deserved plug btw ) , and it would still surely take longer to get a stream of players good enough to make an impact , yes it would be a good incentive to be on the same ranking list as o sullivan but it still seems a little too disparate , there wouldn’t be much point in someone getting elected into a pro tournament from say the acton snooker club when their tables aren’t anything like pro tables , and if higher ranked players say only play at the dunstable club who decided them there anyway , isn’t that similar to why for example chris wakelin is a pro now because of his proximity to the atack club in nuneaton .
personally i’d just stick to paying wst directly and letting young players learn while getting upset and bruised losing on the job , i know you’d still have the problem of that being advantageous to english players who live nearer wst events but so be it , wst could still hold tournaments in other regions around the world too i guess .

Actually, the whole point is that players everywhere participate in the same ranking system. So players in different countries can have local tournaments. If players do well, they gradually move up the ranking list: top 1000, top 500 etc. and gain entrance to stronger and stronger tournaments (with better facilities). Eventually they get good enough to play regularly in Pro-Am or ultimately Pro-level tournaments. The incentives exist at all levels: you'd have players whose ambition is to get into the top 10000, or high enough to qualify for their local club team, or just acheive a better ranking than their mates, etc. Everyone would have an incentive to improve.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby SnookerEd25

cupotee wrote:tables as good and as well maintained as those at the dunstable club ( deserved plug btw ) ,

there wouldn’t be much point in someone getting elected into a pro tournament from say the acton snooker club when their tables aren’t anything like pro tables


That's my local <ok>

Undeserved plug, though, it's an absolute sh*thole, and the tables are among the very worst I've come across in 35-odd years of playing the game.

Good practice, though, since the demise of Rileys Shepherds Bush I've nowhere else to play within a reasonable radius, and if I can make a 20 break on those tables its probably the equivalent of a near half-century on a better club table.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

They should at least have tournaments played in full in the host country and not have a tour card system relying on the same 128 players entering every event. If done right you could make it easier for players in different parts of the World to play in tour events and get on the ranking list and also allow lower ranked players from places like England to focus on tournaments closer to home without having to worry about chasing ranking points thousands of miles away.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby lhpirnie

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:They should at least have tournaments played in full in the host country and not have a tour card system relying on the same 128 players entering every event. If done right you could make it easier for players in different parts of the World to play in tour events and get on the ranking list and also allow lower ranked players from places like England to focus on tournaments closer to home without having to worry about chasing ranking points thousands of miles away.

Yes, I agree generally. The tour card system does allow players some security, and there are contractual things as well. Often, young players need to take out loans to finance their career in the early stages, before they wrack up enough prizemoney to be secure.


But yes, the current system forcing players to enter every tournament to grab every ranking point is pitiful, and it can't continue if the game becomes truely global. You wouldn't need qualifiers in Barnsley or Preston, and the calendar issues wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby Dan-cat

LDS wrote:No, you can't really blame internet those kind of societal changes and all that kind of thing for the decline of the amateur game. Even back in the 90s and onwards snooker clubs weren't permanently filed with paying customers. Depending on the time of day I could regularly be only one of a small handful of people actually playing snooker in them. A lot would depend on location combined with the time of day.

There's a whole raft of other factors that effected snooker clubs. I'll name but a few:

1. Banning smoking inside - the average snooker player would have been a cultural smoker.
2. The increase of taxation upon tobacco and alcohol - no money left for the table light.
3. The cost of the table light - decline of the blue collar worker generally.
4. Rent increases - snooker clubs are often in locations where more prosperous trades hike the rateability.
5. Greater sense of entrepreneurship - The culture of converting premises to whatever is most profitable.
6. The death of the owner - The next owner after Willie Thorne will not have his prestige, for example. Or care

The idea that time on the internet has any effect on the preclusion of 'outside' activities is silly, there will always be a need for activities away from the domicile, it's the other cultural aspects such as those listed above which help define what things people like to do when they leave the house.


I'm not talking about 'time on the internet' when I use the expression 'dissolution of culture.'

There's a great theory from Noel Gallagher in Supersonic, the documentary about Oasis's meteoric two-year rise in the early 90s when he talks about how never, ever again will as band be as big Oasis were. Never again will a band occupy the psyche of the nation like that. Not because they were particularly special, but because of social media and the amount of channels there are now - how disparate interests have become because no matter what you are into, there is a group / channel / site for that. It was a differnet time. The amatuer boom in the 80s was the anomaly rather than the norm. We had three TV channels and sometimes snooker was on both of them. Of course more kids wanted to play snooker and that's what gave us the class of '92.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby cupotee

SnookerEd25 wrote:
cupotee wrote:tables as good and as well maintained as those at the dunstable club ( deserved plug btw ) ,

there wouldn’t be much point in someone getting elected into a pro tournament from say the acton snooker club when their tables aren’t anything like pro tables


That's my local <ok>

Undeserved plug, though, it's an absolute sh*thole, and the tables are among the very worst I've come across in 35-odd years of playing the game.

Good practice, though, since the demise of Rileys Shepherds Bush I've nowhere else to play within a reasonable radius, and if I can make a 20 break on those tables its probably the equivalent of a near half-century on a better club table.


yes i haven't played there ( we're talking about the east acton hurricane club ? ) since 2017 , they had a russian pyramid table that i asked to play snooker on once to get a better response off the cushions but the staff guy said best not to as someone might complain , didn't want to pressurise him , yes people really need to play in a pro event if they think clubs like this bear any relevance to pro snooker at all , they don't , promotion or a league system whatever its fanciful to think they carry any benefit for an amateur looking to become a pro , look at the lack of pro's from the london area since jimmy white turned pro in 1980 , in terms of the pro game its best just to leave them for the concept of socialising , kids , students , pensioners etc .

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby LDS

Dan-cat wrote:I'm not talking about 'time on the internet' when I use the expression 'dissolution of culture.'

There's a great theory from Noel Gallagher in Supersonic, the documentary about Oasis's meteoric two-year rise in the early 90s when he talks about how never, ever again will as band be as big Oasis were. Never again will a band occupy the psyche of the nation like that. Not because they were particularly special, but because of social media and the amount of channels there are now - how disparate interests have become because no matter what you are into, there is a group / channel / site for that. It was a differnet time. The amatuer boom in the 80s was the anomaly rather than the norm. We had three TV channels and sometimes snooker was on both of them. Of course more kids wanted to play snooker and that's what gave us the class of '92.


I suspect we're talking at cross purposes here. Yes, I do agree with you that its unlikely that any players will come along, or that the game itself, will again reach rock'n'roll status, and that moments in time are difficult to replicate. However, on the topic of talent coming through, this is nothing to do with it, as niches are very good at producing specialists.

The modern game is even more favourable to niches as it allows for a lot more people to earn a professional living at the sport. Meanwhile, many of those old greats that filled the ranks of the rock'n'roll years just popped out of a relative nowhere one day and started winning events. Mostly just from playing at clubs. Daily huslin'.

And there are young talents playing snooker, and young talents on the circuit. But for some reason they're simply not good enough. And its been like this for about 5 years now. You only need one or two players a year to show some kind of original promise and for only half of them to become genuine contenders for it to feel like a continuous stream of new talent, and yet it seems to now persistently not happen.

Has anyone considered the possibility that being too nice to new talent could be hampering the emergence of new talent? In that, you don't actually have to work that hard to earn £40k a year & if you get a £100k year at one point, then you can feel like job done, even if you haven't won anything or even got to a final.

While back in ye dark ages of barely any competitions, and only one or two ranking events, then you'd have to be damn good to even appear, let alone actually win money. ie: you'd really have to love the game to stick at it, and you'd really have to know in your heart that you were good enough to hammer Davis 10-1 on a good day to even bother committing yourself to competition. Whereas now we have built up a culture of happy, wealthy 'losers' who, like ye olde boxing hacks, are simply paid to make the star look good.

?

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby lhpirnie

LDS wrote:...
Has anyone considered the possibility that being too nice to new talent could be hampering the emergence of new talent? In that, you don't actually have to work that hard to earn £40k a year & if you get a £100k year at one point, then you can feel like job done, even if you haven't won anything or even got to a final.
...

No, sorry I disagree.


The big problem for young players now is that there are so many players, although outside the elite, who are very tough to beat. It's very difficult for young players to win many matches and gain any momentum or experience. Many young players I have seen are actually worse in their second season. After suffering so many defeats, their confidence is shattered and the pressure of trying to get into the top-64 is too much. It was considerably easier 20 years ago.

The system is generally geared for the top players. They play their matches on the TV tables, and they get several tournaments for themselves (Champion of Champions, Masters, TC, etc.). When a young player occasionally gets to play on the top table, he's up against a top player, and finds the table conditions totally unfamiliar, and a commentator dismissing him with "rabbit in the headlights", when he struggles to control the cue-ball.

I know there is an opinion, expressed by some brash top players, that young players are lazy and spend all their time partying. This is generally not true, and unfair. I don't think they work any less hard than players from previous generations, who also went out drinking sometimes as has been well-documented. It's also not true that there is plenty of money lower down the rankings. £40k isn't enough to survive as a pro; travel expenses and practice facilities are too much. Anyone starting out needs financial help, which is even more difficult as more and more resources are syphoned towards the elite, with extra bonuses etc.

Barry's legacy has been a boom in top snooker, with prizemoney breaking £1M, but he has largely ignored the future of the game, which will surface after he has safely retired.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby cupotee

lhpirnie wrote:
LDS wrote:...
Has anyone considered the possibility that being too nice to new talent could be hampering the emergence of new talent? In that, you don't actually have to work that hard to earn £40k a year & if you get a £100k year at one point, then you can feel like job done, even if you haven't won anything or even got to a final.
...


The system is generally geared for the top players. They play their matches on the TV tables, and they get several tournaments for themselves (Champion of Champions, Masters, TC, etc.). When a young player occasionally gets to play on the top table, he's up against a top player, and finds the table conditions totally unfamiliar, and a commentator dismissing him with "rabbit in the headlights", when he struggles to control the cue-ball.


just abbreviated for brevity , completely agreed , it reminds me of when andy goldstein asked o sullivan in late 2019 why aren't young players good enough , you could almost carry the duplicity out of o sullivan's mouth in a wheelbarrow when he said thats always been the case since he turned pro , he's just someone making hay while the sun shines and wants people to think he's special in the process .

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby Dan-cat

lhpirnie wrote:Barry's legacy has been a boom in top snooker, with prizemoney breaking £1M, but he has largely ignored the future of the game, which will surface after he has safely retired.


I really don't think this global sport will collapse because there are a fewer great UK amateurs than there used to be.

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby lhpirnie

Dan-cat wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:Barry's legacy has been a boom in top snooker, with prizemoney breaking £1M, but he has largely ignored the future of the game, which will surface after he has safely retired.


I really don't think this global sport will collapse because there are a fewer great UK amateurs than there used to be.

Out of interest, who's in your top-10 in 2031? And will those players be able to sustain the boom we are having now?

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby SnookerEd25

cupotee wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
cupotee wrote:tables as good and as well maintained as those at the dunstable club ( deserved plug btw ) ,

there wouldn’t be much point in someone getting elected into a pro tournament from say the acton snooker club when their tables aren’t anything like pro tables


That's my local <ok>

Undeserved plug, though, it's an absolute sh*thole, and the tables are among the very worst I've come across in 35-odd years of playing the game.

Good practice, though, since the demise of Rileys Shepherds Bush I've nowhere else to play within a reasonable radius, and if I can make a 20 break on those tables its probably the equivalent of a near half-century on a better club table.


yes i haven't played there ( we're talking about the east acton hurricane club ? ) since 2017 , they had a russian pyramid table that i asked to play snooker on once to get a better response off the cushions but the staff guy said best not to as someone might complain , didn't want to pressurise him , yes people really need to play in a pro event if they think clubs like this bear any relevance to pro snooker at all , they don't , promotion or a league system whatever its fanciful to think they carry any benefit for an amateur looking to become a pro , look at the lack of pro's from the london area since jimmy white turned pro in 1980 , in terms of the pro game its best just to leave them for the concept of socialising , kids , students , pensioners etc .


East Acton Hurricane Rooms yes.

I’ve never been allowed near the Pyramid table either :hmmm:

Re: What will happen when Barry Hearn is gone?

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

lhpirnie wrote:
KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:They should at least have tournaments played in full in the host country and not have a tour card system relying on the same 128 players entering every event. If done right you could make it easier for players in different parts of the World to play in tour events and get on the ranking list and also allow lower ranked players from places like England to focus on tournaments closer to home without having to worry about chasing ranking points thousands of miles away.

Yes, I agree generally. The tour card system does allow players some security, and there are contractual things as well. Often, young players need to take out loans to finance their career in the early stages, before they wrack up enough prizemoney to be secure.


But yes, the current system forcing players to enter every tournament to grab every ranking point is pitiful, and it can't continue if the game becomes truely global. You wouldn't need qualifiers in Barnsley or Preston, and the calendar issues wouldn't be a problem anymore.


You could have tour cards for different regions. So if some one wins a card in England they get entry into events there and in neighbouring countries. If you win a tour card in Asia you can enter every tournament there. The World Championship qualifiers would be the exception as it would be from the rankings/invites.