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Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby mick745

I dont think Knowles would have beaten Davis in 1983 although he'd have probably put up a better fight than Thorburn.

Charlton would have expected to beat the unknown Griffiths in 1979, as it turned out it was Charlton's last realistic chance of winning the title. Probably a 50/50 beating Taylor but it certainly wouldnt have been a quick match.

Jimmy's 1982 loss pretty much defined his career from then on as the world championship's nearly man
That red he missed with the rest at 15-14 and 59-0 he would surely have got later in his career, it wasnt a particularly difficult shot for his standard.

Paul Hunter may have won one or more world titles in his career but it was one of those things that may have scarred him and cast doubts when things got tight.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Andre147

Didn't Fred Davis miss a sitter of a pink at the 1978 Worlds for a chance to play the Final with Reardon?

I would have loved to see Fred play Reardon in a World Final. I think Fred was heartbroken because his brother had passed away recently too.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby TheRocket

2000 was a big moment as well. Higgins was 15:11 up on Williams and lost 17:15. Stevens was waiting in the final. Williams then beat Stevens 18:16 and won his first World title.

So Higgins had the opportunity to win 2 World titles before Williams and Ronnie even win 1. I think the period from 1999-2001 where he lost two semis to MJW and the final to ROS did get under his skin for quite some time and he didnt get to another final until 2007.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby mick745

Andre147 wrote:Didn't Fred Davis miss a sitter of a pink at the 1978 Worlds for a chance to play the Final with Reardon?

I would have loved to see Fred play Reardon in a World Final. I think Fred was heartbroken because his brother had passed away recently too.


Davis lost 18-16. The pink he missed would have put him 17-15 up i think.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Iranu

I think if Selby had met Kyren in the final, the frames result would have been fairly close but it would never have looked like anything other than a Selby victory. Kinda similar to 2016.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Andre147 wrote:Didn't Fred Davis miss a sitter of a pink at the 1978 Worlds for a chance to play the Final with Reardon?

I would have loved to see Fred play Reardon in a World Final. I think Fred was heartbroken because his brother had passed away recently too.

The brown Fred pots at 35:50 always reminds me of the famous brown Hendry potted against White in their '92 final. Hendry's was slightly harder. I also love the way Fred leaves the rest on the table for the ref to put away.

https://youtu.be/ZMS9ghYrlLI?t=2061

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

mick745 wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
mick745 wrote:In 1972 Rex Williams missed match ball v Alex Higgins when it finished 31-30.

Imagine if Higgins hadnt burst onto the scene at that moment how different snooker history may have been.

Yes indeed. I was going to include that match but I'm not sure of the match progression, i.e. how they reached 30-30. May have something at home. You would would have to think Spencer would've beaten Rex in the final, although Rex had beat Reardon in the quarters.


I believe Williams led either 30-27 or 30-28. I dont know in which frame Rex Williams missed frame ball (i think it was a blue) but the incident certainly changed the career of both players and of the popularity of the sport itself.


I've done some digging!

1972 World Professional Snooker Championship
SEMI-FINAL

Monday 20th – Thursday 23rd December, 1971
Played at Co-op Hall, Bolton


ALEX HIGGINS (Belfast) 31
REX WILLIAMS (Stourbridge) 30


Frame scores (Higgins first):
Session 1 62-46; 37-75(70); 24-102(46,41); 79-40; 31-61; 67-48; 80-36. (Higgins 4-3)
Session 2 81(68)-45; 88(44)-24; 37-71(61); 58-81; 54-66; 39-66; 55-67; 59-67. (Williams 9-6)
Session 3 4-93; 41-63; 53-62; 59-50; 43-77(61); 70-41; 48-76. (Williams 14-8)
Session 4 102(58,40)-23; 63-51; 109(80)-30; 36-68(59); 96-12; 46-92; 74-18; 44-70. (Williams 17-13)
Session 5 38-76(54); 64-49; 100-10; 37-95(65); 69-16; 14-101(82); 73-28. (Williams 20-17)
Session 6 62-20; 42-83; 87-2; 19-97; 80(45)-48; 64-46; 26-60; 101(46)-24. (Williams 23-22)
Session 7 111-18; 71-21; 15-85; 54-61; 64-57; 82-0; 63-52; 23-84. (Higgins 27-26)
Session 8 70-36; 42-51; 41-77(43); 80-22; 36-73; 71-61; 49-62(61); 72-30. (Higgins 31-30)


Birmingham Daily Post (Friday 24th December 1971)
Clive Everton reports…

“ Williams levelled the match 30-30 with a brilliant break of 61 from an unpromising position and led 28-14 with five reds left in the deciding frame.
However, a bad miss at an almost straight blue into the middle pocket from its spot cost Williams his chance of clinching the match.
Higgins, with a break of 32, secured a lead which, after a fine snooker on the yellow, he converted into a winning margin by potting the green. ”

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby mick745

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Didn't Fred Davis miss a sitter of a pink at the 1978 Worlds for a chance to play the Final with Reardon?

I would have loved to see Fred play Reardon in a World Final. I think Fred was heartbroken because his brother had passed away recently too.

The brown Fred pots at 35:50 always reminds me of the famous brown Hendry potted against White in their '92 final. Hendry's was slightly harder. I also love the way Fred leaves the rest on the table for the ref to put away.

https://youtu.be/ZMS9ghYrlLI?t=2061


The score was actually 16-14 in Mans favour here, for some reason i though Davis would be ahead or level with this frame. The missed pink is obviously very crucial and reminiscent of Knowles missed pink.

Great to see an interview with Joe Davis just before the clip.

From wikipedia: "He collapsed whilst watching Fred play Perrie Mans in the semi-final of the 1978 World Snooker Championship. Whilst convalescing, Davis contracted a chest infection that led to his death on 10 July that year"

We have had far more great semi finals at the crucible than finals.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby mick745

badtemperedcyril wrote:
mick745 wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
mick745 wrote:In 1972 Rex Williams missed match ball v Alex Higgins when it finished 31-30.

Imagine if Higgins hadnt burst onto the scene at that moment how different snooker history may have been.

Yes indeed. I was going to include that match but I'm not sure of the match progression, i.e. how they reached 30-30. May have something at home. You would would have to think Spencer would've beaten Rex in the final, although Rex had beat Reardon in the quarters.


I believe Williams led either 30-27 or 30-28. I dont know in which frame Rex Williams missed frame ball (i think it was a blue) but the incident certainly changed the career of both players and of the popularity of the sport itself.


I've done some digging!

1972 World Professional Snooker Championship
SEMI-FINAL

Monday 20th – Thursday 23rd December, 1971
Played at Co-op Hall, Bolton


ALEX HIGGINS (Belfast) 31
REX WILLIAMS (Stourbridge) 30


Frame scores (Higgins first):
Session 1 62-46; 37-75(70); 24-102(46,41); 79-40; 31-61; 67-48; 80-36. (Higgins 4-3)
Session 2 81(68)-45; 88(44)-24; 37-71(61); 58-81; 54-66; 39-66; 55-67; 59-67. (Williams 9-6)
Session 3 4-93; 41-63; 53-62; 59-50; 43-77(61); 70-41; 48-76. (Williams 14-8)
Session 4 102(58,40)-23; 63-51; 109(80)-30; 36-68(59); 96-12; 46-92; 74-18; 44-70. (Williams 17-13)
Session 5 38-76(54); 64-49; 100-10; 37-95(65); 69-16; 14-101(82); 73-28. (Williams 20-17)
Session 6 62-20; 42-83; 87-2; 19-97; 80(45)-48; 64-46; 26-60; 101(46)-24. (Williams 23-22)
Session 7 111-18; 71-21; 15-85; 54-61; 64-57; 82-0; 63-52; 23-84. (Higgins 27-26)
Session 8 70-36; 42-51; 41-77(43); 80-22; 36-73; 71-61; 49-62(61); 72-30. (Higgins 31-30)


Birmingham Daily Post (Friday 24th December 1971)
Clive Everton reports…

“ Williams levelled the match 30-30 with a brilliant break of 61 from an unpromising position and led 28-14 with five reds left in the deciding frame.
However, a bad miss at an almost straight blue into the middle pocket from its spot cost Williams his chance of clinching the match.
Higgins, with a break of 32, secured a lead which, after a fine snooker on the yellow, he converted into a winning margin by potting the green. ”


Great research. An 8 session semi-final what bliss. The last session looked very tense nip and tuck throughout with both players trying to get an advantage.

I had thought Williams was ahead something like 30-27 and indeed wikipedia backed me up

"Williams reached the semi-final of the World Snooker Championship three times, losing to John Spencer in 1969, in 1972 to Alex Higgins 30–31 (having been four frames ahead with five left to play) and, in 1974"

But my recollection and theirs is obviously wrong. Great to have Clive Everton's original report extract.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Cuetracker had a few frames missing but I found those in newspaper reports. There may be more 40+ breaks but which were not mentioned in the papers. Billiards & Snooker magazine was owned by the B&SCC and they had fallen out with the professionals so there’s nothing in January 72 edition. Clive’s rival magazine World Snooker would have covered it but unfortunately I don’t have that month - they’re extremely rare.

Rex also lost semis in the 50’s but the professional game was in decline then so there weren’t so many entries.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Clive was the correspondent for Birmingham Daily Post, hence why their coverage was more comprehensive than most daily newspapers of the day. I subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive online. Fascinating to research old world championships in this way.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

mick745 wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Didn't Fred Davis miss a sitter of a pink at the 1978 Worlds for a chance to play the Final with Reardon?

I would have loved to see Fred play Reardon in a World Final. I think Fred was heartbroken because his brother had passed away recently too.

The brown Fred pots at 35:50 always reminds me of the famous brown Hendry potted against White in their '92 final. Hendry's was slightly harder. I also love the way Fred leaves the rest on the table for the ref to put away.

https://youtu.be/ZMS9ghYrlLI?t=2061


The score was actually 16-14 in Mans favour here, for some reason i though Davis would be ahead or level with this frame. The missed pink is obviously very crucial and reminiscent of Knowles missed pink.

Great to see an interview with Joe Davis just before the clip.

From wikipedia: "He collapsed whilst watching Fred play Perrie Mans in the semi-final of the 1978 World Snooker Championship. Whilst convalescing, Davis contracted a chest infection that led to his death on 10 July that year"

We have had far more great semi finals at the crucible than finals.

Fred had recovered from 8-14 down - that pink would’ve got him back to only 15-16, so the momentum was very much in his favour. Even after that he fought on and made it 16-17, only for Mans to compile a 60 break - his highest of the match.

Joe was sitting in the arena with Joyce Gardner, the former Women’s Champion. She recalled that Joe almost fell off his chair when Fred missed the pink.
Last edited by badtemperedcyril on 11 Mar 2021, edited 1 time in total.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby PLtheRef

Juddernaut88 wrote:2003 world championship semi final was an amazing match, just a shame Hunter didn't win it though.


The first Semi-Final I ever went to at the Crucible. I had tickets for the Saturday afternoon and whilst wanting Paul to win as a Yorkshireman, being really disappointed that at 15-9 we would be in for a likely short afternoon.

Was such an electric atmosphere as frame by frame went by, and is still one of my favourite, but very poignant memories of the Crucible.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Empire State Human

Clive’s rival magazine World Snooker would have covered it but unfortunately I don’t have that month

Back in the days when Snooker Scene didn’t carry full frame scores. It has a longer match report, though, which might be of interest:


(Higgins v Williams)

https://imgur.com/eL7YrJI.jpg
https://imgur.com/qAt5HaN.jpg


(Bonus: Charlton v Spencer)

https://imgur.com/7PUMZGa.jpg
https://imgur.com/4GwxjVU.jpg

Dings semi final losses in 2011 & 2017. He would have been playing Higgins in the final.

Good shout, imo. Would have been interesting in 2011 to see how Ding would’ve fared against Higgins, as he had already beaten him in a UK final previously. But then Higgins was kinda unstoppable in that half-season where he was unbanned – he won 5 out of the 7 events he competed in, losing only in the Masters (v Dott) and China (v Ebdon).

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

The majority is similar to what I found in the Birmingham Daily Post - as one would expect with Clive being author of both. Your WS has enabled me to add some more breaks however.

Interesting that if you look this match up on Cuetracker, it states the only half centuries were an 80 by Alex and 59 from Rex. In fact, Rex scored pretty well considering the Championship tables at that time were notoriously strict.

Rex breaks: 70,61,61,59,64,65,82,64,61.
Alex breaks: 68,58,80.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby PLtheRef

What if indeed!

I always find theses kinds of threads interesting because similar to a thread about Finals these are all matches where you would have expected the player on the wrong-side of the scoreline to have gone on and won the contest.

1973 John Spencer 19-12 up on Ray Reardon - lost 23-22 (Ray then beat Eddie Charlton 38-32)
At the time of the 1973 Final, Spencer was the more successful player in the World Championships of the two, having won the title twice already to this point and had been runner-up the previous year to Alex. Reardon, champion three years before had been hammered by Spencer in the Semi-Finals in his defence and then had lost his opening match the year before. Despite having initially surrendered his title to Reardon in 1970, of the two at that stage of their careers, Spencer had the upperhand.

Had Spencer reached the Final, then there is a good chance that he would have beaten Charlton in the Final, maybe by a similar margin to the one Reardon achieved (despite being 7-0 down after the first session)


1979 Eddie Charlton 17-16 up on Terry Griffiths - lost 19-17 (Terry then beat Dennis Taylor 24-16)
If there is ever a title which got away for Eddie Charlton, its 1979. 17-16 having recovered from well behind against Griffiths who was in the biggest match of his career, he would have come against Taylor in a similar position in terms of a maiden Crucible Final appearance. A Final between Charlton and Taylor would have probably gone the way of the Australian.


1982 Jimmy White 15-13 up on Alex Higgins - lost 16-15 (Alex then beat Ray Reardon 18-15)
This is an interesting one as White certainly should have won the match 16-14. How would he have gotten on against Reardon? I would have expected Reardon to win this one fairly comfortably, around 18-11 18-12 ish as Jimmy was still relatively 'green' to this situation, not in the Top 16 and in a maiden World Championship Final (despite reaching the Semi-Finals of the UK Championship earlier that season).

1983 Tony Knowles 15-13 up on Cliff Thorburn - lost 16-15 (Cliff then lost to Steve Davis 18-6)
In a way this is similar to Jimmy's match against Alex the year before. Despite his exploits the previous year, Tony was still only ranked World Number 15 though similar to 1982 he produced some good displays in 1983 sending World Number 1 Reardon out in the Last 16. Against Steve Davis in a maiden world final? That would always be a tough prospect, add onto the fact that Steve would have more than wanted revenge for the 10-1 of the year before and it would be hard to make a case for Tony, although I would have expected it to be closer than the eventual scoreline between Davis and Thorburn - perhaps another 18-12.

2002 Matthew Stevens 16-14 up on Peter Ebdon - lost 17-16 (Peter then beat Stephen Hendry 18-17)
I know several have made the case that Hendry would have won an 8th World Championship had he come up against Stevens in the Final but I'm not as certain. Stevens had been to the Final before and would have learned the lessons of letting slip a 13-7 advantage, in addition Stevens had a growing record against Hendry, having dispatched him 13-5 the previous year.

Would he have beaten Hendry? Maybe, Maybe not, but I think that Hendry would have been more of a favourite to beat Ebdon than Stevens over Best of 35


2003 Paul Hunter 15-9 & 16-14 up on Ken Doherty - lost 17-16 (Ken then lost to Mark Williams 18-16)
Even with a place in a maiden World Championship Final at stake, at 15-9, Hunter should have that match won, having been in command for so much of the contest. That said, it is a testament to Ken and in particular his exploits in 2003 that he was able to mount that comeback. From 16-14, it was anyone's contest.

Had Paul made it through to the Final how would he have done against a Mark Williams in form of his life? Having reached the Final for the loss of 19 frames (just one shy of the record low). - I don't think there was any stopping Williams that year and I think he would have defeated Hunter 18-13, 18-14.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Andre147

I never forget how Maguire's career might have been different if he won that 2007 Worlds semi-final v Higgins, 14-10 up.

I'm certain he'd have beaten Selby in the Final too.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Wildey

Dragonfly wrote:Hendry would probably have beaten Stevens in the 2002 final for his 8th title. I'm unsure as to whether White would actually have beaten Reardon in 82.

Another difficult one is whether Hunter could beat Williams in 2003. Hunter was superb in his Masters finals. But he collapsed badly against Doherty in that semi and I wonder was he quite ready to win a world final at the time. I'm sure he would have eventually if he was still with us.

Ray Reardon beat Jimmy White in 2 finals 10-5 and 9-6 during the next 9 months after Higgins beat him in the 1982 WC.

Alex was a clever player where as JImmy was very raw so over 35 frames i cant think Jimmy would have got close to beating Ray in 1982 WC final.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Andre147

Yes fully agree. Jimmy's safety play wasn't very good back then, as opposed to Alex Higgins. Jimmy just wanted to pot the balls, and Reardon would have tied him up in knots, play superb safety play to force a mistake from Jimmy.

Reardon would certainly win it, and pretty convincingly too. In terms of safety play, I think the only players that match Reardon are John Higgins, Mark Selby and Steve Davis. Reardon was very very clever and Jimmy wouldn't cope with it over 35 frames.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby mick745

So we are saying if Jimmy potted that red at 15-14 and 59-0, Reardon would have won his SEVENTH world title, something Davis would fall short of matching and Hendry now only have matched it.

In other words White changed the whole course of snooker history with that miss.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby SnookerEd25

Possibly, but history would have been different. Davis may have gone on to win 8(+) leaving Johnson & Taylor without the ultimate prize. We’ll never know.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby badtemperedcyril

PLtheRef wrote:What if indeed!

I always find theses kinds of threads interesting because similar to a thread about Finals these are all matches where you would have expected the player on the wrong-side of the scoreline to have gone on and won the contest.

1973 John Spencer 19-12 up on Ray Reardon - lost 23-22 (Ray then beat Eddie Charlton 38-32)
At the time of the 1973 Final, Spencer was the more successful player in the World Championships of the two, having won the title twice already to this point and had been runner-up the previous year to Alex. Reardon, champion three years before had been hammered by Spencer in the Semi-Finals in his defence and then had lost his opening match the year before. Despite having initially surrendered his title to Reardon in 1970, of the two at that stage of their careers, Spencer had the upperhand.

Had Spencer reached the Final, then there is a good chance that he would have beaten Charlton in the Final, maybe by a similar margin to the one Reardon achieved (despite being 7-0 down after the first session)
Great reply.



No question the '73 defeat was a pivotal moment in the careers of Spencer and Reardon. Between 1969 (maybe even go back to '66 when he won the English Amateur?) and upto the time of this semi-final, Spencer was undoubtedly the Number One player in the world but losing to Reardon in such a manner destroyed his confidence. His faithful cue was also smashed in a car accident in 1973 and he was never the same player again. Even though he regained the world title in '77, it was a different style of snooker to the attacking, elegant brand in which he'd won his first two. The long sweeping cue action, deep screw shots and prodigious use of side was a thing of the past.

For Reardon it was the opposite, that win set him on the road to dominate the Championship for the next four years. His cause was further helped when both Spencer and Charlton went out early the following year.

Re: World Champs Semi-finals... WHAT IF ?

Postby Wildey

mick745 wrote:So we are saying if Jimmy potted that red at 15-14 and 59-0, Reardon would have won his SEVENTH world title, something Davis would fall short of matching and Hendry now only have matched it.

In other words White changed the whole course of snooker history with that miss.

what if Selby had cleared up in the decider last year against Ronnie he had the chance Selby could have been 4 times champ or Kyren would have played better in the final than he did and become a World Champ.


Sport is full of what ifs.