On the subject of bottle.

Afternoon all. I know we're in the middle of a tourney , but this has come to mind so thought I'd air it. As titled, this is on the subject of bottle. I think a lot of nonsense is talked about bottle. Good snooker does of course rely on it, but bottle for me is based on levels.
Today I'm going to be asking about bottle at the very highest level.
In my opinion the biggest test of bottle is the dish, or in BBC commentator speak, the counter clearance. The dish isn't just one shot, but several in sequence, so concentration and nerve must be maintained.
So here's the question: In your opinions which players, past and present, at 17-17 in the World final and 0-66 in the decider would be able to dish up a 5 red and black 67 to dish and win the World crown??
I've compiled my own list, but of course this is only my opinion and up for discussion.
From the past: Hendry and possibly Parrot. I guess we have to include the Hurricane because of that almost ridiculous 69 against Jimmy, but with such a lack of cue ball that was a freak of nature.
From the present: Ronnie, (without thinking about it, ditto Judd), Robbo, Williams and of course John Higgins and Selby with assassins' smirks on their faces. Also possibly Allen and Dott.
I would also mention Davis, Mcmanus, Cliff , Reardon and Griffiths as players who could win the frame, but with a 32, a devliish safety, and a clearance from the last red.
Notable absences, past and present include Jimmy, Maguire and Murphy, again very open for discussion.
Not sure if I'm being over genorous on my choices or a bit tight, but don't think there would be many.

I'd back Yan, but not Ding, nor in fact any of the other Chinese players. Though possibly Fu, who if he'd reached that stage could do it.

You're right. Yan is certainly a good candidate, probably more so than Ding, of course another notable absence.

chengdufan wrote:I'd back Yan, but not Ding, nor in fact any of the other Chinese players. Though possibly Fu, who if he'd reached that stage could do it.

We probably have to consider that they could all get to this point and just think about the dish. Fu is also calm enough.

Doherty?

Iranu wrote:Doherty?

Good call. In his prime quite possibly.

Have just seen Murphy dish on Day. BUT it's last 32 Welsh Open against Ryan Day.

gallantrabbit wrote:Have just seen Murphy dish on Day. BUT it's last 32 Welsh Open against Ryan Day.

I was going to say this. Dishing to win the Worlds is obviously a different level of pressure.

I reckon if the question was asked to players, pundits etc, John Higgins would get the majority of votes.

gallantrabbit wrote:

Iranu wrote:Doherty?

Good call. In his prime quite possibly.

I say it mostly based on the fact that he beat Hendry, Ronnie, Higgins and Williams in finals to win four of his six rankers. How many players can say that? Including ending Hendry’s Crucible dominance which must have carried immense pressure.

I think Selby would be maybe in the top 5 of all-time to win the decider. Not so much to clear up in one visit.

Ebdon. At his peak had nerves of solid steel. He missed a sitter that allowed Hendry to level at 17-17 in their final. Then put the shock behind him and coolly made frame and match winning break in the decider

Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins are the top 3 names for me.

Would Davis get in there?

Iranu wrote:Would Davis get in there?

Davis definitely deserves a mention. But, as I said, I would put Ronnie, Hendry and J. Higgins above anyone else.

Davis? More than worth a mention but didnt have a great number of dishes over the years. Different conditions of course, but you always got the feeling that he would tuck up rather than go all out.

Lots of players deserve a mention. Anyone remember Jimmy's dish from 60 down in the 84 final against Davis? This was the 33rd frame. Would he have done it in the 35th? Regretfully probably not. Levels of bottle.

gallantrabbit wrote:Davis? More than worth a mention but didnt have a great number of dishes over the years. Different conditions of course, but you always got the feeling that he would tuck up rather than go all out.

Davis obviously had good bottle. He would have had to to win as much as he did. I think the situation with Davis was that he used to win so many big matches by huge margins. He was rarely called upon to make a high pressure clearance.

When pushed close in big matches, Higgins in 83, White in 84 and Taylor in 85, Davis used to get very jittery. He was in a right state against White but was just strong enough to fall over the line. And of course he failed in the other 2.

He used to enjoy crushing his opponents. I don't think he enjoyed the nail biting finishes that much.

Johnny Bravo deserves a mention.

gallantrabbit wrote:Lots of players deserve a mention. Anyone remember Jimmy's dish from 60 down in the 84 final against Davis? This was the 33rd frame. Would he have done it in the 35th? Regretfully probably not. Levels of bottle.

Awesome break. But you are probably right. If it was a 35th frame something would have gone wrong

Holden Chinaski wrote:Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins are the top 3 names for me.

Agree, though probably not in that order.

And agree that Selby would be right behind them.

any player in the Top32 could do so if the table is straightforward. Which means red and colours all in open play.

Reg Varney wrote:

Holden Chinaski wrote:Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins are the top 3 names for me.

Agree, though probably not in that order.

And agree that Selby would be right behind them.

I would put it in this order:

Ronnie
Hendry
John

Holden Chinaski wrote:

Reg Varney wrote:

Holden Chinaski wrote:Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins are the top 3 names for me.

Agree, though probably not in that order.

And agree that Selby would be right behind them.

I would put it in this order:

Ronnie
Hendry
John

Honest John in front of Hendry for me. I think people tend to forget what balls and bottle O'Sullivan has got.

Any player in top 32? A dish or a scrape? Dont agree mate. Even with 5 straightforward reds something will go wrong under that pressure. Only tge very few I think.

Hendry seems like a mental giant because his most famous comebacks and close wins came against some of the biggest bottlers the sport of snooker has ever seen.

Reg Varney wrote:I think people tend to forget what balls and bottle O'Sullivan has got.

He's number one, for sure.

Cloud Strife wrote:Hendry seems like a mental giant because his most famous comebacks and close wins came against some of the biggest bottlers the sport of snooker has ever seen.

This type og snide sneer about bottlers that gets me. Its all about levels. What Hendry did to Jimmy for example was precisely what Jimmy could do to lower rankers. Exactly like now. What higgins does to murphy he can do to Gould for example. Anyone call Shaun a bottler?

gallantrabbit wrote:Any player in top 32? A dish or a scrape? Dont agree mate. Even with 5 straightforward reds something will go wrong under that pressure. Only tge very few I think.

I mean Higgins would do it 9 times out of 10 while someone like Stevens would only do it once out of 10. But in theory they can all do it.

Its all about holding yourself together for a few minutes and on a good day even the biggest bottler could manage it.

Thats the point though. You dont get 10 chances as stevens and jimmy found out. In theory I could do it but we all know I wouldnt.