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Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby TheRocket

Dan-cat wrote:What he talks about though... it already exists. It's called the seniors tour, and in the last few years it has grown, with new events being added.


yes pretty much.

But I have to admit, this time there is no contradiction to what he said about retirement in general in recent time. Because in recent interviews he said that 50 is a good age to retire and that he has only a few more years left before packing in. I definitely think he'll retire in the next 4 or 5 years. He aint gonna do a Davis or White and play into his mid 50's , losing in 1st and 2nd rounds all the time just for the sake of having fun.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

‘I suppose at some point there’s going to be a few players in my age bracket feeling the same way. I think Marco Fu has decided to jack it in, staying in Hong Kong. James Wattana too. All very, very good players but it’s an age thing, you just get to an age where the mind says “yeah I can do it” but the body can’t keep up.’

Does he know that? Or is there a possibility they are choosing not to travel due to restrictions? That's not the same thing.

Also, even if both those have players decided to retire, surely it's better to hear from them?

Not a big deal, but seems an odd thing to bring into the interview.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:What he talks about though... it already exists. It's called the seniors tour, and in the last few years it has grown, with new events being added.


He acknowledged that the Seniors tour exists. But says he wants something "in between". He seems to want the older players who are still on the tour to form their own little gang to play each other, but less often with less travel involved. Which isn't going to happen.

Though I get what he's saying about age catching up with everyone, especially with the frequency of tournaments. And with the travel involved, under normal circumstances. Though, if anything, the travel isn't something he's had to worry about this season.

Ronnie basically wants to be a snooker player, but only under his own conditions. A few years ago, he was complaining about playing 'numpties', he prefers it when playing big names. Well, sport doesn't work like that. (Well, except maybe boxing. But that barely qualifies as a sport any more, and isn't something to be aspired to.) Sometimes you'll be drawn against lower-ranked players, or have to play against a player who has a style you don't like playing. That's just what tournament sports are. You don't get to pick who you play next. It's not having a laugh with your mates down the club, it's top-level sport.

Also, he only wants to play in big arenas etc, which is fairer enough. But sadly, snooker isn't a popular enough sport to always be like that these days. At least in the UK. It probably is in certain other countries like Germany or China. Though China will always have the small crowd issues. (And he'd have to travel for those, which he seems to be saying he's not enjoying as much.)

Instead of always chatting about break-away tours, or whatever, the closest thing to a solution for Ronnie (that doesn't involve going onto the Seniors) is to pick and chose what tournaments he wants to enter. But even then, he was moaning that he has to play a certain amount of ranking tournaments to maintain his ranking in The Masters and The Coral series. But again, there's no way out of that.

There's just no way of turning up, and only playing the top-players whenever he wants. There has to be a certain amount of grind. Sadly, Barry Hearn can't build the tour around Ronnie's schedule.

Probably the best thing for him is to limit when he plays, but also enter the odd Seniors or set up some exhibition matches also.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

HappyCamper wrote:wattana is retired i think.

marco fu intends to continue if given a card.


Now I think about it, didn't Wattana fall off the tour and wasn't given a Wild Card?

Yeah, you're right. And Fu has had his problems, hasn't he?

Not sure I'd call either of those "packing it in". But I remember them both now.
Last edited by SnookerFan on 22 Feb 2021, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby Dragonfly

Ronnie has been talking of retirement since he was 17. But I do think that the time isn't far off now. I doubt he will continue like White when he is fading as a serious contender.

I know that no one player is bigger than the sport. But I'm not looking forward to when he packs it all in. There will still be great matches but no way will it be the same without him. He's a once in a lifetime player. I can't see myself being as interested when he's not there.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:Boxing isn't a sport anymore? What are you on about.


If you followed boxing, you'd know exactly what I meant. It's something that's complained about quite often among boxing fans.

It's more of a business than a sport. It's all politics. People with popularity that can draw a crowd get title shots that they don't necessarily deserves, people with decent resumes who don't have big fan-bases or who can't draw money are more likely to be ignored. There have been cases of a person who is #1 contender being paid to stand aside for a while, because the governing bodies or the promoters want to set up a fight that would sell more than one featuring the number one contender to the title.

There's countless boxers out there, who have spent most of their careers fighting journeymen, or just flat out fight garbage fighters, just to build up an undefeated record in the hope a big name will fight them and they'll be able to cash in. Often the bigger a name, the more risk averse they are. More interested in fighting people with positive records, than take any real risks at losing. (Or at least their promoters think that way.) I'm generalising, not everybody is like that. But there's far too much of it about these days, to the point it barely resembles an actual sport any more.

In short, it started becoming less of a sport and more of a business when they started to expand the amount of governing bodies there are. If there's several governing bodies, and consequently, several world titles per weight, nobody is governing with the sport's best interest at heart. They're governing the sport based on how much money can be made for their organisation.

Boxing is a funny one in that it aims itself at casual fans and not hardcore fans. A casual fan is more likely to buy a PPV because Sky tells them it's a good fight. A knowledgeable fan will be able to determine whether a PPV is worthy watching or not. Sky don't like that. They like people who can be persuaded to watch/pay for boxing irrespective of the quality of the fight. And let's not forget governing bodies bringing out things like silver titles, platinum titles, diamond titles. Basically brand new titles that had never existed before. They then ask if any promoters want to pay the fees to the governing bodies, so they can promote the young lad they look after vs a journeyman as being for 'a vacant title'. It sounds impressive, even if the title didn't exist last week and will often get vacated a few days after somebody wins it. As long as the majority fall for it, it won't stop.

It's not all like that. But a sport with several governing bodies, basically stops acting in the interest of the sport and starts acting in the interest of lining their pockets.

Sorry, that's a Zebra post. But, the discussion of why boxing is more of a business/con trick for casual fans than an actual sport could probably fill a book.
Last edited by SnookerFan on 30 Dec 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:Isn't all sport business?


It's hard to explain.

Imagine there were four major governing bodies within snooker. Meaning that there were up to four World Champions at any time. There were also dozens of smaller ones. The smaller ones are not taken seriously by the big names. So you had players like Simon Lichtenberg defend a version of the world championship against Sean Maddocks.
Though this is clearly nonsense, technically it counts as a World Title fight.

On top of that, every player has a promoter who decides who his player faces. There are no competions, and only minimal rules about who they should face. Which can often be gotten around if you try hard enough.

Ronnie has one version of the World Title. As does Ali Carter. They won't unify against each other because they hate each other. And there's no rules in place saying that they have to. They have no obligation to fight each other, even though they both have major versions of the World Title.

The mandatory number one contender to Ali Carter's World Title is Mark Selby, but nobody wants to watch that. So, his promoter offers Mark Selby some money to go away for a few months and not take the title shot. Selby accepts. This is allowed and publicly known. No rules have been broken.

Ali Carter's promoter wants to face Jimmy White, because he is low ranked but can draw a crowd. The governing body for whom Ali Carter is World Champion likes the sound of it because it'll make money. So Jimmy plays somebody who has never picked up a cue before, and told that if he wins he suddenly becomes number one contender to Carter's World Title. Sky Sports charge you £15 on top of what you're already paying to watch the match.

The following week World Champion Judd Trump plays World Champion Ding Juhnui in a unification match. It's in China. The commentators talk about how the judges won't give it to Judd if it goes the distance, as they always favour the home fighter. This is a problem that's known about in the sport to the point that pundits avlno6 it, but nobody does anything about it because getting popular results that can draw money is more important than fair results. This match also comes with a fee to watch on your own TV, despite starting over here at 6am.

See how long you'd be watching this circus circus, and still maintain the opinion that snooker is being run like a proper sport.

It works in boxing, because there's enough people who'll buy into the hype even if the fight is crap.

When I say boxing doesn't resemble a sport, what I really mean is it's not run like one.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerEd25

SF, you have summed up perfectly why I stopped watching boxing a decade ago

And why, when Channel4 made a documentary about the boxing world they called it ‘Welcome to the Sewer’

<ok>

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby Dan-cat

SnookerFan wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Isn't all sport business?


It's hard to explain.

Imagine there were four major governing bodies within snooker. Meaning that there were up to four World Champions at any time. There were also dozens of smaller ones. The smaller ones are not taken seriously by the big names. So you had players like Simon Lichtenberg defend a version of the world championship against Sean Maddocks.
Though this is clearly nonsense, technically it counts as a World Title fight.

On top of that, every player has a promoter who decides who his player faces. There are no competions, and only minimal rules about who they should face. Which can often be gotten around if you try hard enough.

Ronnie has one version of the World Title. As does Ali Carter. They won't unify against each other because they hate each other. And there's no rules in place saying that they have to. They have no obligation to fight each other, even though they both have major versions of the World Title.

The mandatory number one contender to Ali Carter's World Title is Mark Selby, but nobody wants to watch that. So, his promoter offers Mark Selby some money to go away for a few months and not take the title shot. Selby accepts. This is allowed and publicly known. No rules have been broken.

Ali Carter's promoter wants to face Jimmy White, because he is low ranked but can draw a crowd. The governing body for whom Ali Carter is World Champion likes the sound of it because it'll make money. So Jimmy plays somebody who has never picked up a cue before, and told that if he wins he suddenly becomes number one contender to Carter's World Title. Sky Sports charge you £15 on top of what you're already paying to watch the match.

The following week World Champion Judd Trump plays World Champion Ding Juhnui in a unification match. It's in China. The commentators talk about how the judges won't give it to Judd if it goes the distance, as they always favour the home fighter. This is a problem that's known about in the sport to the point that pundits avlno6 it, but nobody does anything about it because getting popular results that can draw money is more important than fair results. This match also comes with a fee to watch on your own TV, despite starting over here at 6am.

See how long you'd be watching this circus circus, and still maintain the opinion that snooker is being run like a proper sport.

It works in boxing, because there's enough people who'll buy into the hype even if the fight is crap.

When I say boxing doesn't resemble a sport, what I really mean is it's not run like one.


I see! Thank you. <cool>

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

SnookerFan wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Isn't all sport business?


It's hard to explain.

Imagine there were four major governing bodies within snooker. Meaning that there were up to four World Champions at any time. There were also dozens of smaller ones. The smaller ones are not taken seriously by the big names. So you had players like Simon Lichtenberg defend a version of the world championship against Sean Maddocks.
Though this is clearly nonsense, technically it counts as a World Title fight.

On top of that, every player has a promoter who decides who his player faces. There are no competions, and only minimal rules about who they should face. Which can often be gotten around if you try hard enough.

Ronnie has one version of the World Title. As does Ali Carter. They won't unify against each other because they hate each other. And there's no rules in place saying that they have to. They have no obligation to fight each other, even though they both have major versions of the World Title.

The mandatory number one contender to Ali Carter's World Title is Mark Selby, but nobody wants to watch that. So, his promoter offers Mark Selby some money to go away for a few months and not take the title shot. Selby accepts. This is allowed and publicly known. No rules have been broken.

Ali Carter's promoter wants to face Jimmy White, because he is low ranked but can draw a crowd. The governing body for whom Ali Carter is World Champion likes the sound of it because it'll make money. So Jimmy plays somebody who has never picked up a cue before, and told that if he wins he suddenly becomes number one contender to Carter's World Title. Sky Sports charge you £15 on top of what you're already paying to watch the match.

The following week World Champion Judd Trump plays World Champion Ding Juhnui in a unification match. It's in China. The commentators talk about how the judges won't give it to Judd if it goes the distance, as they always favour the home fighter. This is a problem that's known about in the sport to the point that pundits avlno6 it, but nobody does anything about it because getting popular results that can draw money is more important than fair results. This match also comes with a fee to watch on your own TV, despite starting over here at 6am.

See how long you'd be watching this circus circus, and still maintain the opinion that snooker is being run like a proper sport.

It works in boxing, because there's enough people who'll buy into the hype even if the fight is crap.

When I say boxing doesn't resemble a sport, what I really mean is it's not run like one.


Bungke.

I meant acknowledge.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby chengdufan

I'm interested in this idea of judges deciding who wins the match between Judd and Ding. I wonder what the criteria would be :chin:

Loving that a Ronnie thread has been derailed. The irony! :chuckle:

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby McManusFan

chengdufan wrote:I'm interested in this idea of judges deciding who wins the match between Judd and Ding. I wonder what the criteria would be :chin:

Loving that a Ronnie thread has been derailed. The irony! :chuckle:


The judges dock Trump a frame for having an excess of flukes.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby Johnny Bravo

SnookerFan wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Boxing isn't a sport anymore? What are you on about.


If you followed boxing, you'd know exactly what I meant. It's something that's complained about quite often among boxing fans.

It's more of a business than a sport. It's all politics. People with popularity that can draw a crowd get title shots that they don't necessarily deserves, people with decent resumes who don't have big fan-bases or who can't draw money are more likely to be ignored. There have been cases of a person who is #1 contender being paid to stand aside for a while, because the governing bodies or the promoters want to set up a fight that would sell more than one featuring the number one contender to the title.

There's countless boxers out there, who have spent most of their careers fighting journeymen, or just flat out fight garbage fighters, just to build up an undefeated record in the hope a big name will fight them and they'll be able to cash in. Often the bigger a name, the more risk averse they are. More interested in fighting people with positive records, than take any real risks at losing. (Or at least their promoters think that way.) I'm generalising, not everybody is like that. But there's far too much of it about these days, to the point it barely resembles an actual sport any more.

In short, it started becoming less of a sport and more of a business when they started to expand the amount of governing bodies there are. If there's several governing bodies, and consequently, several world titles per weight, nobody is governing with the sport's best interest at heart. They're governing the sport based on how much money can be made for their organisation.

Boxing is a funny one in that it aims itself at casual fans and not hardcore fans. A casual fan is more likely to buy a PPV because Sky tells them it's a good fight. A knowledgeable fan will be able to determine whether a PPV is worthy watching or not. Sky don't like that. They like people who can be persuaded to watch/pay for boxing irrespective of the quality of the fight. And let's not forget governing bodies bringing out things like silver titles, platinum titles, diamond titles. Basically brand new titles that had never existed before. They then ask if any promoters want to pay the fees to the governing bodies, so they can promote the young lad they look after vs a journeyman as being for 'a vacant title'. It sounds impressive, even if the title didn't exist last week and will often get vacated a few days after somebody wins it. As long as the majority fall for it, it won't stop.

It's not all like that. But a sport with several governing bodies, basically stops acting in the interest of the sport and starts acting in the interest of lining their pockets.

Sorry, that's a Zebra post. But, the discussion of why boxing is more of a business/con trick for casual fans than an actual sport could probably fill a book.


:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:
All the boxing governing bodies should be forced to merge into just 1. And boxers should not be allowed to choose who they fight, they should be forced to fight the best guy out there and the looser should not get any money.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby Ronnie79

SnookerFan wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:What he talks about though... it already exists. It's called the seniors tour, and in the last few years it has grown, with new events being added.


He acknowledged that the Seniors tour exists. But says he wants something "in between". He seems to want the older players who are still on the tour to form their own little gang to play each other, but less often with less travel involved. Which isn't going to happen.

Though I get what he's saying about age catching up with everyone, especially with the frequency of tournaments. And with the travel involved, under normal circumstances. Though, if anything, the travel isn't something he's had to worry about this season.

Ronnie basically wants to be a snooker player, but only under his own conditions. A few years ago, he was complaining about playing 'numpties', he prefers it when playing big names. Well, sport doesn't work like that. (Well, except maybe boxing. But that barely qualifies as a sport any more, and isn't something to be aspired to.) Sometimes you'll be drawn against lower-ranked players, or have to play against a player who has a style you don't like playing. That's just what tournament sports are. You don't get to pick who you play next. It's not having a laugh with your mates down the club, it's top-level sport.

Also, he only wants to play in big arenas etc, which is fairer enough. But sadly, snooker isn't a popular enough sport to always be like that these days. At least in the UK. It probably is in certain other countries like Germany or China. Though China will always have the small crowd issues. (And he'd have to travel for those, which he seems to be saying he's not enjoying as much.)

Instead of always chatting about break-away tours, or whatever, the closest thing to a solution for Ronnie (that doesn't involve going onto the Seniors) is to pick and chose what tournaments he wants to enter. But even then, he was moaning that he has to play a certain amount of ranking tournaments to maintain his ranking in The Masters and The Coral series. But again, there's no way out of that.

There's just no way of turning up, and only playing the top-players whenever he wants. There has to be a certain amount of grind. Sadly, Barry Hearn can't build the tour around Ronnie's schedule.

Probably the best thing for him is to limit when he plays, but also enter the odd Seniors or set up some exhibition matches also.



If you read the article properly he said it was for 3 or 4 years time when he and other players of his age are no longer good enough for the main tour. Higgins and Williams will be finished by then. I don't know why they don't join the Seniors and add to that tour. Ronnie wants 8 to 12 players for 8 to 10 events with a promoter and TV to back him. Why do you say it is not going to happen ?. John Higgins ran the World Series of Snooker for two seasons independent of WS. If they have no main tour cards and the 8 players find a promoter and TV coverage Hearn cannot stop them from setting it up. It would be independent like Snooker Legends who originally set up the World seniors tour.

Re: Ronnie O'Sullivan talks retirement

Postby SnookerFan

I just doubt it happens. What's the point to any of it? Higgins World Series event was at a time when there were bugger all other events. That was the point of it. To get playing opportunities. There are plenty of those now. And even that only lasted a couple of seasons.

Also, the TV schedules are packed as it is with snooker. Even if we assume that the TV channels would want to put money up to show what is, essentially, a second Seniors Tour. How enthusiastic are the players that are finished in three or four years time going to be for joining Ronnie's tour, when they can just enter The Seniors anyway? That's already established and already has a structure, television coverage in place and prize money involved. What does Ronnie's new tour idea offer to the has-been players that the Seniors doesn't already offer.

Especially if Ronnie's plan is, as you suggest, to invite the Seniors into his tour. Why go through all that trouble of setting up a new tour and inviting everybody from the Seniors Tour onto it, when the easier thing to do is just have players join The Seniors Tour as and when it's convenient for them?

The only way I can see this happening, is if for some reason The Seniors Tour doesn't exist in four years time and they sort something else out.

Also, I suspect that we're putting more thought into this than Ronnie has himself. It's just something he mentioned in an interview.


   

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