Post a reply

Who is the greater player?

Poll ended at 28 Nov 2020

Judd Trump
12
57%
Dennis Taylor
9
43%
 
Total votes : 21

ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Pink Ball

Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor (Best of 20 frames)
Group: D
Date: November 27
Match: Four of six
Match day: Two of three
Venue: Tempodrom, Berlin, Germany

Vote for which of the two players you think was greater. Vote honestly, and leave your bias out of it. Don’t vote for a player just because you like them, don’t vote against a player just because you dislike them.

Consider the table conditions to be whatever conditions would have the least impact on the result.

You can use your own personal criteria for measuring greatness once it’s free of any bias towards/against (delete as applicable) players you like/dislike (delete as applicable).

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Pink Ball

Juddernaut88 wrote:I'm amazed loads of people have voted for Taylor. Is it anti Judd Trump people on the wind up?

Definitely people on the wind-up, which is a bit disappointing. I've found the tournament very fair and, therefore, really enjoyable so far. There have been a few calls I disagreed with, but nothing anywhere near as glaring as this.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby LDS

Trump is a good player, but Taylor is a great player. Trump will be a great player one day, for sure. Plenty of time left for him to reach the same level of greatness that Taylor achieved.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby badtemperedcyril

Taylor won a lot for someone with his level of talent. Throughout his career he had a really nasty snatchy cue action, which he only sporadically eliminated from his game. Just my opinion from watching him in tv footage from the late 70’s to his retirement but he was never a great player.

And his jokes are rubbish.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Empire State Human

Taylor was 7-0 down when I gave him his first sympathy vote, lol. Maybe I regret that now.

As it's the Fantasy World Snooker Championship, I voted for him on the basis that his World Championship record is slightly better than Judd's. And I think he has the better temperament.

But on all other stats - other tournament wins, break building, long potting, etc. - Trump wins hands down.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Iranu

Empire State Human wrote:Taylor was 7-0 down when I gave him his first sympathy vote, lol. Maybe I regret that now.

That kind of attitude’s how Davis came unstuck in 1985, and look where that’s got us.

Why didn’t you think?! :grrr:

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby SnookerEd25

Holden Chinaski wrote:I voted for Judd. Taylor voters must be taking the snake hiss.


There are a lot of Trump-haters on the Island.
:shrug:

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby badtemperedcyril

Dan-cat wrote:I may have voted for Dennis last night while drunk I can only apologise.

Mind you, a handy player in his time. Did any of you ever watch that 6 part TV series he did for BBC about how to play?? Loved it. Must be online somewhere will look
I remember it - was early 90's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asLE9C0IO4E&t=1287s

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Empire State Human

yeah, I think that's the BBC video version, which cut out quite a bit from the series. I know Jack Karnehm was in one episode, and I remember wondering at the time why Dennis had wheeled out this senile old git to explain things, not knowing who he was. But I remember the series being one of my first snooker memories, and I was fascinated by it more than actual snooker matches at the time.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Acé

Embarassing Dennis taylor got 9 votes and made it this close there isn't a single facet of the game that Dennis is greater than Judd at, Judd at 50% would be enough firepower to routine Dennis Taylor

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby LDS

Juddernaut88 wrote:I'm amazed loads of people have voted for Taylor. Is it anti Judd Trump people on the wind up?


Quite the opposite I would suggest.

This thread has saddened me greatly. I'm almost lost for words. Ok, let's try and think about this for a moment. And I did think long and hard about this one, something others didn't seem to do.

Greatness.

Taylor was a very popular snooker player. I guess it's quite difficult for some to appreciate this. I can understand that. In fact I can very much understand that as, like BTC, he wasn't someone I found hugely enjoyable to watch either, that is, I didn't hate watching him, he'd just often be second choice for me personally if there were a choice of matches to watch. However, we're trying to be objective here, right? Trying to be realistic.

Well, let's look at those major snooker events then:

WSC:

Taylor: 1 x W, 1 x F, 3 x SF, 4 x QF
Trump: 1 x W, 1 x F, 2 x SF, 3 x QF

And Taylor's win here is one of the all-time great wins in the entire history of snooker. Versus Trump beating an old Higgins on a run of runner-ups. An achievement which adds to his greatness but was not even romotely comparable in greatness to Taylors win.

So, on the biggest stage, Taylor is ahead, by quite a margin. Sure, Trump might be one day, even very soon, but that's just what-ifs, the very thing Pink was so upset about in the Hunter/Robertson thread.

So lets see if Trump trumps Taylor with the other majors:

UK:

Taylor: 2 x SF, 1 x QF
Trump: 1 x W, 1 x F

So Trump pegs Taylor back a bit here, that's for sure. But not by a huge amount. Enough to make it look more like a closer run thing at the moment.

Masters:

Taylor: 1 x W, 4 x QF
Trump: 1 x W, 3 x SF, 1 x QF

And again, it's actually a very close thing, Trump is only marginally winning here. So at this point in time, I'm calling it a draw overall.

Ranking tournaments:

Trump is getting most of his love for cleaning up a lot of ranking tournaments. Well, he does have 20 of them to go at every year. So when he wins 6 in a year then that's just under one-third.

In Taylor's day, in and around when he won the WSC, he was also winning ranking tournaments, and a good year for him was 2 Rankers, which, in those days, was one-third of them.

It would not be a stretch to argue that had there been 20 rankers in Taylor's prime then he probably would have snagged 6 of them at least. He was ineed winning 4 or 5 random titles a year at that point.

Break building:

Taylor was actually a very proficient break builder. Infact, and this may surprise you all, but Taylor, throughout all his career, scored more centuries against Davis than Davis scored against Taylor, and this includes the entire 5 years from 1988 when Taylor never beat Davis again.

And this may really surprise you, but when Taylor beat Davis 9-5 in the Canadian Masters Final in 1985 he rattled in 4 centures in those 9 frames. And 4 centuries in 9 frames in those days... well... let's just say he was up to the task.

So what I'm thinking here is:

It's a draw. A this point in time it's a draw.

If I vote for Trump then I'm voting on expectation, not on actual.

If I vote for Taylor then I have a mild case.

I cannot vote for a draw.

And the case that tips it for Taylor is that his WSC win was uniquely iconic. It would not be unreasonalbe to argue that Taylor's win had a huge influnce on the class of 92, who would hav been 9/10 years old at the time. To be at that age at that time, within the hysteria of the 85 final, could well have been that 'excitment' factor which really helped shove those class of '92s on their way. You could even make the argument that there would be no Ronnie without Taylor, he could well have ended up playing full-back or whatever for Deadbeat Rovers FC or whatever.

Now, that's a little speculative what-if there at the end, but it's just icing on a cake that had already just been marginally marzipaned with Taylor's name on it.

The idea that this vote was 'automatically Trumps' and the responses herein is something that I find as equally bizzare as Pink found bizzare with the Hunter vote. But then he's a Robertson fan and rates him a top 10 all-timer. I don't even personally rate Taylor beyond acknowledging him as a true great of the game.

He didn't help his own cause by always speaking of himaelf in a very depricating manner. He was one of those players who always acted surprised whenever he won a match and would always rate everyone else over himself. However, this is just how a lot of people back then were. You could see very clearly, as soon as he hit that snooker table, he was an even fiercer commpetitor than Ebdon.

Nexy year, maybe. But not yet for Trump IMO.

And, yes, I wanted to make this post when is was 9-9. I think people should have left it as a draw.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Iranu

So just to be clear, you’d vote Taylor if anything because of the 1985 final?

What about the fact that Judd’s was the best performance ever seen in a world final?

Edit: tweaked the first sentence after Thunder quoted me.
Last edited by Iranu on 28 Nov 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby LDS

Iranu wrote:So just to be clear, you’d vote Taylor if anything because of the 1985 final?

What about the fact that Judd’s was the best performance ever seen in a world final?

Edit: tweaked the first sentence after Thunder quoted me.


As I said in the post, I'd rather it was a draw at this point in time. The 85 final was the squeaker, the excuse to vote for one over the other. In a poll about greatness.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Iranu

LDS wrote:
Iranu wrote:So just to be clear, you’d vote Taylor if anything because of the 1985 final?

What about the fact that Judd’s was the best performance ever seen in a world final?

Edit: tweaked the first sentence after Thunder quoted me.


As I said in the post, I'd rather it was a draw at this point in time. The 85 final was the squeaker, the excuse to vote for one over the other. In a poll about greatness.

Yeah that’s why I added “if anything” as I know you said you’d tie them given the chance and without that it read like I was deliberately misreading your post.

I’m just surprised you didn’t include the greatest ever world final performance in your criteria in assessing the options. In a poll about greatness.

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby LDS

Iranu wrote:
LDS wrote:Yeah that’s why I added “if anything” as I know you said you’d tie them given the chance and without that it read like I was deliberately misreading your post.

I’m just surprised you didn’t include the greatest ever world final performance in your criteria in assessing the options. In a poll about greatness.


To be honest, this is the first time I've ever heard Trump's win referred to in that way. What was the criteria?

Re: ATWSC Group D: Judd Trump v Dennis Taylor

Postby Iranu

LDS wrote:
Iranu wrote:Yeah that’s why I added “if anything” as I know you said you’d tie them given the chance and without that it read like I was deliberately misreading your post.

I’m just surprised you didn’t include the greatest ever world final performance in your criteria in assessing the options. In a poll about greatness.

To be honest, this is the first time I've ever heard Trump's win referred to in that way. What was the criteria?

I’m surprised you’ve never heard it referred to in that way. Just general standard of play in potting and breakbuilding as well as competing with one of the best tacticians ever.

Higgins is past his best no doubt. But he played pretty damn well in that final and got absolutely torn apart. I’m no Judd fan but I can’t think of another World Final performance better than that.