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Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Pink Ball wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:So because their record in majors is 'identical', they're at the same level?

One of them has 18 ranking titles. The other has nine. Spot the difference yet?


Personally, I would have put the word MAJORS in inverted commas there, but maybe that's just me :chin:

No, I agree actually. The UK and Masters are massively overrated.


It is a shame that that they changed the format of the UK. Still a seriously important tournament though. And the Masters is a superb event. That's what the public want to see. The best in the world compete on a major tv network for huge money.

Playing in Gibraltar on itv 10 with an audience of a few dozen doesn't cut it.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dan-cat

Pink Ball wrote:
Iranu wrote:Nonsense. Judd’s way closer to Robbo than Murphy.

I think he's arguably ahead of Robertson too. I'd still say Robertson shades it, but Trump is definitely going to overtake him.

Murphy was left behind quite a while ago.

Murphy is a very good snooker player, but Trump is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.


Great debate this. Agreed Trump is absolutely brilliant, currently his A game second only to Ronnie's, and arguably joint first. Ronnie has more breakbuilding finesse (a better white) so he shades it for me.

I was quasi-trolling earlier with my comments. Just a light Thursday morning troll. Ruffle the feathers a bit. :-)

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby SnookerEd25

I started watching snooker in the 80s. It was clear then that the World Championship stood above all others - hell, at the beginning of the decade, it was the only event which had a bearing on the seedings. The UK had a good reputation even before it was granted Ranking Status, as it was the only other tournament to feature multi-session matches right from the off. The Masters was a standout event, to be sure, and I always enjoyed it when it rolled round in February (as it used to be then) but due to the shorter matches it never felt quite as prestigious as some of the other tournaments. As more Ranking Tournaments were added to the calendar, they stood out because they always had longer matches for the semi-finals and finals. I think I'm right in saying all Ranking event semi-finals were BO17 or longer until the 90s, so this seemed to give them more prestige. The Masters seems to have gained a reputation as a big boy over the last 10-15years simply because the other tournaments have been reduced in length and that is a shame overall I feel. Thankfully, now there are other events which feature 2 session matches as standard again, or at least 2 session semi-finals and that can only be a good thing long-term. As they grow in stature, the Masters will once again lose some of its sheen.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby SnookerFan

Dragonfly wrote:No, I agree actually. The UK and Masters are massively overrated.


It is a shame that that they changed the format of the UK. Still a seriously important tournament though. And the Masters is a superb event. That's what the public want to see. The best in the world compete on a major tv network for huge money.

Playing in Gibraltar on itv 10 with an audience of a few dozen doesn't cut it.[/quote]

Aint Gibraltar a Eurosport tournament, or has it moved to ITV 4 now?

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

If Judd had won 16 Gibraltar Opens on top of his TCs, Dragonfly’s argument might hold some weight.

Not much, but some.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

If it’s still going in 10 years’ time, the Tour Championship will eclipse the UK Championship as a major. All it needs is some history.

You can already see how highly regarded the Champion of Champions is with a few years under its belt. And its format is nowhere near as good as the Tour Championship’s.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dan-cat

Iranu wrote:If it’s still going in 10 years’ time, the Tour Championship will eclipse the UK Championship as a major. All it needs is some history.

You can already see how highly regarded the Champion of Champions is with a few years under its belt. And its format is nowhere near as good as the Tour Championship’s.


My second fave after the Worlds. The drama this tournament has thrown up already.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

While I have already stated my disappointment that the format of the UK was changed, I don't understand the bad feeling for the event. It's a massively important event. Through the years it has provided some amazing finals. And it's an event people remember.

I can recall the Davis years. I remember Hendry's UK finals. And O'Sullivans. Like I can say that Hendry has 5 titles Davis 6 or whatever. If you ask Hendry himself today I bet he knows he won 5. Ask him about something like the Welsh open he probably would have to look it up.

So leaving aside the bbc self promotion what's with the UK hatred. I know if I could play to that standard I would take a UK title any day over any of the generic Berlin, Riga masters etc. Yes even the Gibraltar open.

People remember world finals. People remember masters finals. And remember UK finals. The UK has provided so many classic moments that live on for many years. I doubt many of the other events make such an impact. I won't be going to YouTube in years to come all hazy with nostalgia looking for some dire event in an empty sports arena in Shanghai.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

Dragonfly wrote:While I have already stated my disappointment that the format of the UK was changed, I don't understand the bad feeling for the event. It's a massively important event. Through the years it has provided some amazing finals. And it's an event people remember.

I can recall the Davis years. I remember Hendry's UK finals. And O'Sullivans. Like I can say that Hendry has 5 titles Davis 6 or whatever. If you ask Hendry himself today I bet he knows he won 5. Ask him about something like the Welsh open he probably would have to look it up.

So leaving aside the bbc self promotion what's with the UK hatred. I know if I could play to that standard I would take a UK title any day over any of the generic Berlin, Riga masters etc. Yes even the Gibraltar open.

People remember world finals. People remember masters finals. And remember UK finals. The UK has provided so many classic moments that live on for many years. I doubt many of the other events make such an impact. I won't be going to YouTube in years to come all hazy with nostalgia looking for some dire event in an empty sports arena in Shanghai.

I don’t hate the UK. The sad fact is it doesn’t really stand out anymore other than the fact that it’s the UK championship and it's on the BBC. It’s ahead of other tournaments because of its history. It’s also probably helped by being at the end of the calendar year.

But as other tournaments build their own history and as the UK continues to fall behind in prize money, it will be pulled level with those tournaments and eventually fall behind to those with better formats and proper TV coverage.

History's important but it can only get you so far.

Oh, and there are plenty of matches from other tournaments that are remembered. If you think last year's CoC final won’t go down in history then I’m afraid you’re deluding yourself.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:While I have already stated my disappointment that the format of the UK was changed, I don't understand the bad feeling for the event. It's a massively important event. Through the years it has provided some amazing finals. And it's an event people remember.

I can recall the Davis years. I remember Hendry's UK finals. And O'Sullivans. Like I can say that Hendry has 5 titles Davis 6 or whatever. If you ask Hendry himself today I bet he knows he won 5. Ask him about something like the Welsh open he probably would have to look it up.

So leaving aside the bbc self promotion what's with the UK hatred. I know if I could play to that standard I would take a UK title any day over any of the generic Berlin, Riga masters etc. Yes even the Gibraltar open.

People remember world finals. People remember masters finals. And remember UK finals. The UK has provided so many classic moments that live on for many years. I doubt many of the other events make such an impact. I won't be going to YouTube in years to come all hazy with nostalgia looking for some dire event in an empty sports arena in Shanghai.

I don’t hate the UK. The sad fact is it doesn’t really stand out anymore other than the fact that it’s the UK championship and it's on the BBC. It’s ahead of other tournaments because of its history. It’s also probably helped by being at the end of the calendar year.

But as other tournaments build their own history and as the UK continues to fall behind in prize money, it will be pulled level with those tournaments and eventually fall behind to those with better formats and proper TV coverage.

History's important but it can only get you so far.

Oh, and there are plenty of matches from other tournaments that are remembered. If you think last year's CoC final won’t go down in history then I’m afraid you’re deluding yourself.


It was a great match no doubt. I love to see a great final regardless of the event. And the UK has given more great finals than most events. I think it's too easy to suggest that because it's almost Xmas time when it's held that that's a major contributor to its success.

Maybe I'm a bit old school. Maybe I'm traditional. But when I look at any player's record I will always check his world, UK and Masters record. Great matches will happen in other events. Law of averages dictate this. But at the end of any season I will have remembered the UK final. Last Sundays final was a decent enough match. But in no way will it etch itself on my memory. The event just did not have enough significance.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Georgi1914

Dragonfly wrote:While I have already stated my disappointment that the format of the UK was changed, I don't understand the bad feeling for the event. It's a massively important event. Through the years it has provided some amazing finals. And it's an event people remember.

I can recall the Davis years. I remember Hendry's UK finals. And O'Sullivans. Like I can say that Hendry has 5 titles Davis 6 or whatever. If you ask Hendry himself today I bet he knows he won 5. Ask him about something like the Welsh open he probably would have to look it up.

So leaving aside the bbc self promotion what's with the UK hatred. I know if I could play to that standard I would take a UK title any day over any of the generic Berlin, Riga masters etc. Yes even the Gibraltar open.

People remember world finals. People remember masters finals. And remember UK finals. The UK has provided so many classic moments that live on for many years. I doubt many of the other events make such an impact. I won't be going to YouTube in years to come all hazy with nostalgia looking for some dire event in an empty sports arena in Shanghai.


I couldn't agree more with your comment. Honestly I'm a bit surprised too with some posters' comments that try to somewhat devalue the significance of the UK Championship and Masters titles. Prize money will never be the deciding factor when trying to determine how important and prestigious a certain tournament is. Players will always strive to give their absolute best when competing for a Major title (with the Crucible title obviously being the most coveted and hardest to win). It is what it is and in my opinion this won't change any time soon. With that being said Trump has still a very very long way to go before deserving to be put in one sentence with Higgins, Williams and Selby (as someone else previously mentioned), let alone the biggest legends O'Sullivan, Hendry and Davis. Only time will tell how far Judd can go.
Last edited by Georgi1914 on 23 Oct 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

Dragonfly wrote:It was a great match no doubt. I love to see a great final regardless of the event. And the UK has given more great finals than most events. I think it's too easy to suggest that because it's almost Xmas time when it's held that that's a major contributor to its success.

Maybe I'm a bit old school. Maybe I'm traditional. But when I look at any player's record I will always check his world, UK and Masters record. Great matches will happen in other events. Law of averages dictate this. But at the end of any season I will have remembered the UK final. Last Sundays final was a decent enough match. But in no way will it etch itself on my memory. The event just did not have enough significance.

If course it’s given more great finals than most. It’s existed for over 40 years!

I never said its dates were a major contributor so please don’t misrepresent me. I said it probably helps, among several other things that you ignored. It’s traditionally been the bookend to the first half of the season, until the Scottish Open came along (and let's face it the SO is the black sheep of the Home Nations events.) That’s an added significance if only a small one. Same can be said for the Masters being the start of the second half. Whether their placement is due to their importance or whether their importance is aided by their placement is up for debate.

There’s nothing wrong with checking the TC events first, I get that. But you’re suggesting they’re the only indicators of greatness, which is frankly stupid. The best players are the ones who win multiple tournaments in a season, and this is repeated throughout snooker’s history. Do you seriously think Judd would rather have had Ding or Bingham’s 2019-20 season than his own?

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby SnookerEd25

Iranu wrote:Do you seriously think Judd would rather have had Ding or Bingham’s 2019-20 season than his own?


*drops mic* :D :pal:

:clap:

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:It was a great match no doubt. I love to see a great final regardless of the event. And the UK has given more great finals than most events. I think it's too easy to suggest that because it's almost Xmas time when it's held that that's a major contributor to its success.

Maybe I'm a bit old school. Maybe I'm traditional. But when I look at any player's record I will always check his world, UK and Masters record. Great matches will happen in other events. Law of averages dictate this. But at the end of any season I will have remembered the UK final. Last Sundays final was a decent enough match. But in no way will it etch itself on my memory. The event just did not have enough significance.

If course it’s given more great finals than most. It’s existed for over 40 years!

I never said its dates were a major contributor so please don’t misrepresent me. I said it probably helps, among several other things that you ignored. It’s traditionally been the bookend to the first half of the season, until the Scottish Open came along (and let's face it the SO is the black sheep of the Home Nations events.) That’s an added significance if only a small one. Same can be said for the Masters being the start of the second half. Whether their placement is due to their importance or whether their importance is aided by their placement is up for debate.

There’s nothing wrong with checking the TC events first, I get that. But you’re suggesting they’re the only indicators of greatness, which is frankly stupid. The best players are the ones who win multiple tournaments in a season, and this is repeated throughout snooker’s history. Do you seriously think Judd would rather have had Ding or Bingham’s 2019-20 season than his own?


It was you that brought up the events place in the calendar. However that's neither here nor there.

I'm speaking as a snooker fan and member of the public. I'm sure there are many needy obsessive types who record everything a player wins along with every statistic.

However most people don't have the time or interest to delve deeply into who won how many minor events. They enjoy watching the big finals on tv. That's why world,UK and Masters finals are fondly remembered. And a good judge of a player's standing with the public, their place in popular culture and so on.

If someone wants to obsess about some guy winning 5 or 6 events good luck to them. Most people don't care. While I enjoyed watching Trump/Robertson last Sunday the match is ultimately already fading in my mind. I've been a long time fan of O'Sullivan. But don't ask me how to name what he's won apart from UK, masters and world's. He probably couldn't name them himself.

People care about and remember certain events. If you want to get excited about the Riga classic or whatever off you go. I find it better to have other interests and don't follow such triviality.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

You’re an idiot and you’re deliberately ignoring me.

Consider this conversation closed. You’re definitively wrong.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Georgi1914 wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:While I have already stated my disappointment that the format of the UK was changed, I don't understand the bad feeling for the event. It's a massively important event. Through the years it has provided some amazing finals. And it's an event people remember.

I can recall the Davis years. I remember Hendry's UK finals. And O'Sullivans. Like I can say that Hendry has 5 titles Davis 6 or whatever. If you ask Hendry himself today I bet he knows he won 5. Ask him about something like the Welsh open he probably would have to look it up.

So leaving aside the bbc self promotion what's with the UK hatred. I know if I could play to that standard I would take a UK title any day over any of the generic Berlin, Riga masters etc. Yes even the Gibraltar open.

People remember world finals. People remember masters finals. And remember UK finals. The UK has provided so many classic moments that live on for many years. I doubt many of the other events make such an impact. I won't be going to YouTube in years to come all hazy with nostalgia looking for some dire event in an empty sports arena in Shanghai.


I couldn't agree more with your comment. Honestly I'm a bit surprised too with some posters' comments that try to somewhat devalue the significance of the Masters and UK Championship titles. Prize money will never be the deciding factor when trying to determine how important and prestigious a certain tournament is. Players will always strive to give their absolute best when competing for a Major title (with the Crucible title obviously being the most coveted and hardest to win). It is what it is and in my opinion this won't change any time soon. With that being said Trump has still a very very long way to go before deserving to be put in one sentence with Higgins, Williams and Selby (as someone else previously mentioned), let alone the biggest legends O'Sullivan, Hendry and Davis. Only time will tell how far Judd can go.


Thanks mate. Surprises me too. I know Trump will win more events. He's far too good not to. He does seem to have some very sensitive fans though. Who exaggerate his place in the all time greats

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:You’re an idiot and you’re deliberately ignoring me.

Consider this conversation closed. You’re definitively wrong.


How could I be ignoring you when I posted a message to you about 5 mins ago. Like I say if you want to obsess over Trump knock yourself out. We get it. You don't like the UK. You love Trump. Whatever makes you happy.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

Dragonfly wrote:
Iranu wrote:You’re an idiot and you’re deliberately ignoring me.

Consider this conversation closed. You’re definitively wrong.


How could I be ignoring you when I posted a message to you about 5 mins ago. Like I say if you want to obsess over Trump knock yourself out. We get it. You don't like the UK. You love Trump. Whatever makes you happy.

If you think I love Trump you really are an idiot.

You didn’t answer my question.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:
Iranu wrote:You’re an idiot and you’re deliberately ignoring me.

Consider this conversation closed. You’re definitively wrong.


How could I be ignoring you when I posted a message to you about 5 mins ago. Like I say if you want to obsess over Trump knock yourself out. We get it. You don't like the UK. You love Trump. Whatever makes you happy.

If you think I love Trump you really are an idiot.

You didn’t answer my question.


I was quite enjoying conversing with you. Then for whatever reason you get all insulting. If you are unable to hold proper debate I refuse to waste any more time with you.

You began with the name calling. I'm unsure why. But really I don't care. Life is too short. This forum is a very tiny part of my interests and I will enjoy the conversation with more intelligent and civil posters.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:Still haven’t answered my question. I wonder why :shrug:


I forgot the question. No wonder I did as I was being insulted. Although you think I'm an idiot you are very anxious for my opinion on something.

Anyhow it's an impossible question to answer. I can only say what I would think if I had the choice. I would prefer to win the UK or the Masters as opposed to what Trump won.

That's my opinion. There is no right or wrong answer. Some people may differ. Trump probably does. Ultimately who cares.

There you go. If I can help you with anything else let me know. The meaning of life perhaps? You do seem most interested in my opinion. Anyhow do try to reign in your insults and name calling. It's rude and shows a certain level of ignorance and lack of class

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

I apologise for the name calling. It was uncalled for.

That said, there’s not a doubt in my mind Judd would rather have his record-breaking season than Ding or Bingham’s.

I’m sure it will go down in history much more than “that time Ding won the UK in 2019.”

Also, rein in*.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Dragonfly

Iranu wrote:I apologise for the name calling. It was uncalled for.

That said, there’s not a doubt in my mind Judd would rather have his record-breaking season than Ding or Bingham’s.

I’m sure it will go down in history much more than “that time Ding won the UK in 2019.”

Also, rein in*.


It's no problem. Of course I accept your apology. I thank you for that.

Good spot on spelling error.

I do still hold the triple crown events in higher regard. I don't really feel anything for some of the other events. I have no doubt other people think differently. No doubt many players do.

But I still look at a player and say he won the masters or UK. I never look at a player and think remember he won the German masters a few years ago.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby TheRocket

Tier 1: Hendry,O'Sullivan, Davis

Tier 2: J.Higgins,Williams,Selby, Reardon

Tier 3: Trump,Robertson, A.Higgins

Tier 4: Ding,Murphy, Parrott, Ebdon, White, Doherty

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby GeF

There is only one major and it is the Worlds.

You win Masters with only 4 matchs and the UK is nothing more than the 5th Home Nation event.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

I’d have Alex Higgins in tier 2. But there’s an argument for 2 or 3.

Weird that he’s the only two time world champion. I wonder who’ll join him first.

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry,O'Sullivan, Davis

Tier 2: J.Higgins,Williams,Selby, Reardon

Tier 3: Trump,Robertson, A.Higgins

Tier 4: Ding,Murphy, Parrott, Ebdon, White, Doherty

Higgins is better than Davis was. So are Robbo, Trump and even Selbo. Neither is greater though.

In terms of greatness:
1. ROS
2. Hendry
3. Davis
4. J. Higgins
5. Reardon
6. Willo
7. Selbo
8. A. Higgins
9. Robbo
10. Trump

In a decade from now on, the list will probably look something like this:
1. ROS
2. Hendry
3. Trump
4. Davis
5. J. Higgins
6. Reardon
7. Selbo
8. Willo
9. Robbo
10. A.Higgins

Re: THIS IS JUDDNATION PART II

Postby Iranu

Trump has a looooooong way to go before cracking that top three. It’s far too soon to say he’ll “probably” get there.