Another way of measuring how good a player is

I was clicking around on Cuetracker and found some interesting stats I hadn't looked at before.

Ronnie has the highest average points scored per frame at 60, the lowest points scored against at 44, and (thus) the highest average point differential per frame at 16. Here's the top 10 by point differential:

1. Ronnie: 60-44 ~ 16
2. Judd: 58-44 ~ 14
3. Hendry: 58-45 ~ 13
4. Selby: 57-45 ~ 12
5. Ding: 57-45 ~ 12
6. N. Robertson: 57-46 ~ 12
7. J. Higgins: 56-45 ~ 11
8. Bingham: 55-45 ~ 9
9. Allen: 56-46 ~ 9
10. Murphy: 56-47 ~ 9

Somewhat surprisingly, the next 3 are Maguire, Wenbo, and Bingtao, followed by Steve Davis.

Interesting! Robbo’s should be 11 right?

I don’t think Yan Bingtao’s that surprising considering he’s in the ascendancy in his career.

Bingham’s the big surprise for me, considering how much of his career he spent as a journeyman.

Davis still being in the top 15 is impressive since he spent so long on the tour when way past his peak. He must have lost a huge proportion of frames by narrow margins rather than big ones when he was losing.

Iranu wrote:Interesting! Robbo’s should be 11 right?

Cuetracker presumably rounded, as they report it as 12.

Great post. It's very interesting and surprising at the same time, and it also supports what I've said all along:
ROS and Trump have the highest peaks. Hendry himself admitted this, and said only those 2 can rank above him, which this graph shows.

This also shows Davis would be no match for modern players.

Johnny Bravo wrote:Great post. It's very interesting and surprising at the same time, and it also supports what I've said all along:
ROS and Trump have the highest peaks. Hendry himself admitted this, and said only those 2 can rank above him, which this graph shows.

If that’s the case it also suggests Selby has the 4th highest peak...

Johnny Bravo wrote:This also shows Davis would be no match for modern players.

No it doesn’t because it includes the ~15 years that he was past his best and slipping down the rankings, and yet he’s still 14th highest on the list.

Iranu wrote:

Johnny Bravo wrote:Great post. It's very interesting and surprising at the same time, and it also supports what I've said all along:
ROS and Trump have the highest peaks. Hendry himself admitted this, and said only those 2 can rank above him, which this graph shows.

If that’s the case it also suggests Selby has the 4th highest peak...

That's the only mistake then.
Robbo and Ding both have a higher peak than Selbo.

Iranu wrote:Interesting! Robbo’s should be 11 right?

I don’t think Yan Bingtao’s that surprising considering he’s in the ascendancy in his career.

Bingham’s the big surprise for me, considering how much of his career he spent as a journeyman.

Davis still being in the top 15 is impressive since he spent so long on the tour when way past his peak. He must have lost a huge proportion of frames by narrow margins rather than big ones when he was losing.

Also, bear in mind, when he was at his peak, the game wasn't about high scoring. More tactical play. Despite his dominance and decades long career, he only made about 300 centuries.

Johnny B.

Iranu wrote:

Johnny Bravo wrote:This also shows Davis would be no match for modern players.

No it doesn’t because it includes the ~15 years that he was past his best and slipping down the rankings, and yet he’s still 14th highest on the list.

Indeed. If Steve Davis was a young man today, he'd be winning a lot of tournaments, you can be sure of that.

Besides the obvious things like titles , "winning percentage" is probably the most valuable non-title stat and measure to show the greatness of a player. And their consistency.
And its for everyone to see that the number 1 is miles ahead. The Top 5.

1. O'Sullivan (75,23%)
2. Trump (69,73%)
3. Higgins (69,23%)
4. Hendry (68,9%) -> prime Hendry must have been above 70% for sure.
5. Selby (68,26%)

I note the "old players would not stand a chance against current ones" red herring has been raised again.

This is flawed thinking. Is the microchip a greater invention than the printing press? Is electricity manifestly superior in its impact than fire? Are Formula 1 cars of greater import than the wheel?

Look at guitarists. (another interest of mine). Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry and Jimi Hendrix were great innovators yet there are more technically proficient guitarists now such as Steve Vai. Does that detract from the work of those who went before?

The answer of course to all these questions is NO.

The likes of Joe Davis, John Spencer, Ray Reardon, Alex Higgins, Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry were all players who made major contributions to the game. In order to arrive at D you need to move through A, B and C and to compare eras in a crude and linear way is to compare apples and oranges.

Quite possibly the best single informational post I have ever read on the Island. Well done!

acesinc wrote::goodpost:

Quite possibly the best single informational post I have ever read on the Island. Well done!

Why thank you. I just felt that the point needed to be made clearly.

Muller wrote:The likes of Joe Davis, John Spencer, Ray Reardon, Alex Higgins, Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry were all players who made major contributions to the game. In order to arrive at D you need to move through A, B and C and to compare eras in a crude and linear way is to compare apples and oranges.

Amen!

TheRocket wrote:Besides the obvious things like titles , "winning percentage" is probably the most valuable non-title stat and measure to show the greatness of a player. And their consistency.
And its for everyone to see that the number 1 is miles ahead. The Top 5.

1. O'Sullivan (75,23%)
2. Trump (69,73%)
3. Higgins (69,23%)
4. Hendry (68,9%) -> prime Hendry must have been above 70% for sure.
5. Selby (68,26%)

just out of curiousity and for comparison's sake, I went and looked it up, here are the top 5 players for match win percentage per decade:

2010-2019:

Ronnie 78.98%
Mark Selby 71.52
Judd trump 70.25
John higgins 69.52
Ding junhui 68.67


2000-2009:

Ronnie 73.82
Shmurphy 65.06
Stephen maguire 65.03
Ryan's day 63.4
John Haggis 62.67


1990-1999:

Stephen Hendry: 77.48
John haggis 75.55
Ronnie 72.25
Mark J williams 70.62
stephen 'Pie' Lee 69.75

honourable mentions that are omitted from these top 5's because they played significantly less matches than the +/- 100 matches for which the top 5 players played are: Paul Hunter with 73.89% (48 matches played) and Matthew Stevens 72.32% (64 matches).

1980-1989:

steve davis 79.88 (132 matches)
stephen hendry 75 (56 matches)
jimmy white 65.27 (123 matches)
john parrot 64.32 (74 matches)
terry griffiths 62.95 (146 matches)

Surprised to see Ding ahead of Robbo for 2010-2019.

So objectively interpreting the data I see:

1) Davis bossed the 80's (with Hendry hot on his heels, and the rest a long distance behind)

2) Hendry bossed the 90's but with less margin compared to the numbers 2-4 than in Davis' era. a sign of the new and upcoming crop of excellent players.

3) Ronnie bossed the 00's with a considerable margin over the followers. the presence of murphy, maguire and Ryan Day all three above Higgins, and the absence of Williams are striking.

4) ronnie still bossed the 10's with a big lead over the rest of the pack, who are all very close together

5) only higgins and ronnie appear on 3 different decades lists, ronnie topping them all.

§) this is just match win percentage, I wonder what tournament win percentage would be like. probably very similar? but I don't feel like looking it all up now...

Iranu wrote:Surprised to see Ding ahead of Robbo for 2010-2019.

2010-2019:

Ronnie 78.98%
Mark Selby 71.52
Judd trump 70.25
John higgins 69.52
Ding junhui 68.6

then right behind Ding comes robertson with 68.42
then it's Allen with 67.93

very very evenly matched playing field so it seems.

Interesting stats.

Ronnie is the only player to have a winning rate above 70% in every decade he took part in which shows his longevity.

The Top5 of 2000-2009 is very interesting. I'm not that surprised about Murphy and Maguire because they had their breakthrough and played great Snooker but to see Ryan Day in that list is strange.

But what surprises me the most is to see Higgins winning rate being that low in the 00's compared to the 90's and even 10's. He won two World titles in the 00's and got to another final and was definitely the 2nd best player of that decade after Ronnie by a mile.

All of this serves to suggest to me that this in fact may NOT be a good way of gauging a player's ability...

There are always topplayers in any sport who either lose early or end up winning the title. Its only black or white with them. Sampras in tennis was a little bit like that. Looks like Higgins was like that in the 00's. Thats why their winning percentage can look low despite the success they have had.

But on most occasions the best and most successful players also have the highest winning percentage. As we can see with Davis in the 80's, Hendry in the 90's, ROS in the 00's. And its always been a debate whether ROS or Selby was the best player in the 10's and as we can see, they are number one and two.

Muller wrote:All of this serves to suggest to me that this in fact may NOT be a good way of gauging a player's ability...

Actually is is. I clearly shows ROS is the GOAT.

Johnny Bravo wrote:

Muller wrote:All of this serves to suggest to me that this in fact may NOT be a good way of gauging a player's ability...

Actually is is. I clearly shows ROS is the GOAT.

How do you show it?

Muller wrote:All of this serves to suggest to me that this in fact may NOT be a good way of gauging a player's ability...

The specific decades maybe not, as it’s unrealistic to expect players’ careers to divide neatly into a ‘normal’ decade.

But I’d say the overall percentages are a good indicator as long as you take into account players’ later years like with Hendry and Davis.

The average points for/against obviously favours players in the modern break-focused era but it’s still interesting.

rekoons wrote:

Iranu wrote:Surprised to see Ding ahead of Robbo for 2010-2019.

2010-2019:

Ronnie 78.98%
Mark Selby 71.52
Judd trump 70.25
John higgins 69.52
Ding junhui 68.6

then right behind Ding comes robertson with 68.42
then it's Allen with 67.93

very very evenly matched playing field so it seems.

I wonder how many ‘free’ percentage points Ronnie got over this decade from the flat draw giving him opponents in early rounds who were already beaten when they stepped out.

How the hell is Ryan Day in the top 5 in the 2000's?

acesinc wrote::goodpost:

Quite possibly the best single informational post I have ever read on the Island. Well done!

Seconded

SnookerFan wrote:

Johnny Bravo wrote:

Muller wrote:All of this serves to suggest to me that this in fact may NOT be a good way of gauging a player's ability...

Actually is is. I clearly shows ROS is the GOAT.

How do you show it?

Didn't you see his percentages ?!?