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Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Acé » 06 Sep 2020 Read

@TheRocket

Yo i was wondering what would you have preferred as it just occured to me:

1. if Ronnie didn't twitch on the frame winning red and did another clearance and won the match
2. Or how it happened in reality with the red twitch, safety battle etc

would the 3 frames be better in all one visit breaks or you preferred how it happened?

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 06 Sep 2020 Read

I personally would have liked to see Ronnie win it in one visit. Definitely. But I think he played the wrong shot on the black. Should have screwed back with a little bit reverse side and he had two reds next to the pink which he could have played to the left middle pocket. He relied on luck when he played the run through over two cushions and then landed awkard.

But I'd guess for Selby it was even more painful the way things went. He had a chance to clear but failed on the last red. During the safety battle Selby played some great shots but ROS got out of them every single time and then destroyed Selby with the two cushion escape in the end.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Holden Chinaski » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Selby was playing great in this match but there were a couple of times where he needed to free a red to keep a break going, little nudges and kisses, tricky positional stuff, and he messed them up a couple of times just like in the last frame. Ronnie did get that stuff right more.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 06 Sep 2020 Read

I compared the O'Sullivan Selby 2020 match to the Selby Ding 2017 match which is regarded as peak Selby match. Couldnt find the total match stats for Selby vs Ding but most of them. Selbys pot success and long pot success was definitely higher in the Ronnie match. 91% pot success and 71% long pot success.

He scored 1588 points against Ronnie, against Ding it was 1587, so pretty much the same. He made 12 50+ breaks against Ronnie, against Ding it was 10. Safety success was higher in the Ding match. Based on the stats we can say is that Selby played about the same level in both matches.

Selby played well in other words but was beaten by a below average ROS who was nowhere near his best.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby D4P » 06 Sep 2020 Read

TheRocket wrote:Selby played well in other words but was beaten by a below average ROS who was nowhere near his best.


Ronnie simply had no business winning that match. Mark must be completely bewildered about how he could have lost...

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Holden Chinaski » 06 Sep 2020 Read

TheRocket wrote:a below average ROS who was nowhere near his best.

He was definitely at his very best in the last 3 frames. Struggled a bit throughout the match, playing his B game and playing hit and hope shots, but there were definitely moments where he played some brilliant A-game stuff. And mentally he really kept it together. Definitely one of Ronnie's all-time best matches when you consider how bad his record at the Crucible was against Selby.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Holden Chinaski wrote:
TheRocket wrote:a below average ROS who was nowhere near his best.

He was definitely at his very best in the last 3 frames. Struggled a bit throughout the match, playing his B game and playing hit and hope shots, but there were definitely moments where he played some brilliant A-game stuff. And mentally he really kept it together. Definitely one of Ronnie's all-time best matches when you consider how bad his record at the Crucible was against Selby.


He played well in the last 3 frames and actually for most parts of the final session. But he definitely struggled in the 2nd and 3rd session. When he was as close in the balls it was good as it always is but his long potting and safety game didnt work at all.

You could say Ronnie probably played his B-game for most parts of the match and even C-game at times. But thats exactly my point. The fact that he's still won shows how much superior he is at his best compared to Selby.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Pink Ball » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Don’t get me wrong, Selby was very good in this semi-final against O’Sullivan. But it wasn’t at the same level as his 2017 semi against Ding.

Which, by the way, is quite ridiculously losing this pairing 4-8 to the excellent but definitely inferior 2019 CoC final: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10337

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Pink Ball » 06 Sep 2020 Read

TheRocket wrote:This is what I found. Unfortunately couldnt find the Ding-Selby match stats. So its only after three sessions. But Selbys pot and long pot success was definitely less than the Ronnie match in the end.


Image

Image

It was marginally down even though Ding’s safety was probably as good as we’ve ever seen it.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Ding safety success was indeed very high. But his pot success and long pot success not so much. I probably have to watch that match again to make a fair assesment whether Ding really played at his best.

Alex0paul I think said that Ding made a few errors whenever he was about to level or take control of the match. And I recall Ding doing something similar in the 2016 final.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Pink Ball » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Are we seriously suggesting Selby’s performance in this match was as good as his 2017 World semi performance?

I give up. Eight out of 12 voters so far are also saying the 2019 CoC final was a better match. People don’t appreciate art when they see it.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Iranu » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Pink Ball wrote:Are we seriously suggesting Selby’s performance in this match was as good as his 2017 World semi performance?

I give up. Eight out of 12 voters so far are also saying the 2019 CoC final was a better match. People don’t appreciate art when they see it.

One match features Judd and the other features Selby. Sadly it’s no surprise to see the wrong match is winning.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Pink Ball » 06 Sep 2020 Read

Iranu wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Are we seriously suggesting Selby’s performance in this match was as good as his 2017 World semi performance?

I give up. Eight out of 12 voters so far are also saying the 2019 CoC final was a better match. People don’t appreciate art when they see it.

One match features Judd and the other features Selby. Sadly it’s no surprise to see the wrong match is winning.

It’s utterly brain dead. Like saying the (very good) Neon Bible is better than the bucking outstanding Funeral.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 06 Sep 2020 Read

I definitely have to watch the 2017 match again to see if the standard was that much higher compared to the 2020 semi-final.

Or that much higher compared to the 2014 semi-final between Selby and Robertson for that matter which is another great match. I dont think so but I could be wrong.

I just think playing Selby over 3 or 4 sessions at the Crucible is always the same story. You know what you get and you know its going to be close. But he just kept winning the matches. And it looked like he was gonna do it again until ROS produced those 3 frames in the end

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby TheRocket » 07 Sep 2020 Read

I watched the fourth session of the Ding Selby 2017 semifinal. Ding had a golden opportunity in each frame , in fact more than one in each frame which he didnt take. Here are a few. Its there for anyone to see. Selby also made a lot of mistakes. I think we overrate this match a little bit. Ding had a great opportunity to win the world title that year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=8m38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=15m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=25m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=1h19m13s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=1h53m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=1h57m45s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=3h11m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLYDi2LofI&t=3h23m25s

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby SnookerFan » 07 Sep 2020 Read

Dan-cat wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I like boxing, but does it really matter if he is Ali or Tyson, for bucks sake? <doh>

He's like Ronnie.


Lolz. You really have a thing about comparing sports stars don't you? <laugh>


Actually, with boxing, it's for a slightly different reason.

Usually, it's because I feel snooker has an inferiority complex. Especially when commentators do it. Look at when they were comparing Ursenbacher with Federer during The Crucible. I mean, for bucks sake, just because they're both Swiss. That's literally the only similarity between the two. It just feels like they're bringing tennis into it for no reason other than so they can compare snooker to a more popular sport. It's like when Hazel ran out when Ronnie had broken the 'majors' record, and started blathering on about what Tiger Woods had done in his career. Who cares? It isn't relevant.

With boxing though, I'm more annoyed because it's such a cliche. I've heard most other sports that I've watched been compared to boxing, and most of the time the time it's no accurate . To be fair, I wasn't having a go at Holden particularly, and I'm not saying it was a bad comparison. Holden actually knows quite a lot about boxing, so that was me just being me. A lot of people who make the comparison know a lot less about boxing than Holden does.

For example, I've heard snooker matches be compared to "a prize-fight where both boxers are trading blows". That annoys me, because it isn't what boxing is about. Rarely boxers stand in the ring and take it in turns to hit each other. Boxing is as much about avoiding your opponents blows as administering your own. So it's a bad comparison. Also, there's no way that a snooker match is like trading blows. If the first player gets a century, and the second player then gets a century, they've both won a frame. A better comparison would be a boxer winning the first round, then his opponent winning the second. Trading blows would be like potting a red, then his opponent runs to the table and pots a red before he has a chance to pot the colour. Which doesn't happen in snooker either. <laugh>

I know it's my problem rather than anybody else's though. I should just do what I do when Dennis Taylor continually waffles about golf. I mean, that's just white noise as this point, I barely notice he does it any more. rofl

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Iranu » 07 Sep 2020 Read

SnookerFan wrote:I was being facetious with the; "Ronnie stands in the corner and punches himself" comment, by the way. I meant that more as a joke than anything.

Yeah that’s more Drago’s schtick.

Image

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby SnookerFan » 07 Sep 2020 Read

Iranu wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I was being facetious with the; "Ronnie stands in the corner and punches himself" comment, by the way. I meant that more as a joke than anything.

Yeah that’s more Drago’s schtick.

Image


Actually, it's Tyson Fury's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VlkRxcIYA


Anyway, the comment I meant was more this one.

SnookerFan wrote:What? He stood in the corner and let himself get punched?

I must've missed that.


That was meant more as a joke.

Re: O'Sullivan's last three frames versus Selby: in numbers

Postby Iranu » 07 Sep 2020 Read

SnookerFan wrote:
Iranu wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I was being facetious with the; "Ronnie stands in the corner and punches himself" comment, by the way. I meant that more as a joke than anything.

Yeah that’s more Drago’s schtick.

Image


Actually, it's Tyson Fury's.

I don’t understand the difference. To me they’re exactly the same.
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