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Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC?

Postby Acé

Anyone know if the International Championship/Shanghai Masters/ World Open/ China Championship will even take place "next season"?

The WC ends mid August thus ending the current season and I assume the next season will start back up pretty quickly to meet the UK tournaments timelines, if all the Chinese tournaments are cancelled will there be other tournaments in the UK before the English Open or the English Open will be the next tournament after the WC?

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby D4P

The_Abbott wrote:next few are:

English Open
NI Open
Scottish Open
Isle of Man open
Isle of Wight Open
Isle of Dogs Open
Bognor Regis Masters
London Classic
Oh my god not another tournament in the UK Masters


All played in Milton Keynes.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby The_Abbott

D4P wrote:
The_Abbott wrote:next few are:

English Open
NI Open
Scottish Open
Isle of Man open
Isle of Wight Open
Isle of Dogs Open
Bognor Regis Masters
London Classic
Oh my god not another tournament in the UK Masters


All played in Milton Keynes.


Yes, there is only one MK do Robertson can't go to teh wrong venue

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby Ck147

The_Abbott wrote:
D4P wrote:
The_Abbott wrote:next few are:

English Open
NI Open
Scottish Open
Isle of Man open
Isle of Wight Open
Isle of Dogs Open
Bognor Regis Masters
London Classic
Oh my god not another tournament in the UK Masters


All played in Milton Keynes.


Yes, there is only one MK do Robertson can't go to teh wrong venue

Here's hoping lol

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby Wildey

Acé wrote:Btw what happens to rankings with cancelled tournaments? Did Robertson lose 225k with China Open being cancelled?

Selby lost £225,000 points for the 2018 China Open that's why his ranking has dropped to 7 but he has nothing coming off at the WC he lost 1st round to Perry in 2018


Mark Williams has dropped like lead balloon from 3 to 11 in the provisional end of season rankings https://wpbsa.com/rankings/latest-provi ... -rankings/

And with points coming off for his World Open win coming off beginning of next season Mark Williams could be in a fight to stay in the top 16 without a good run in Sheffield.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby Acé

Wildey wrote:
Acé wrote:Btw what happens to rankings with cancelled tournaments? Did Robertson lose 225k with China Open being cancelled?

Selby lost £225,000 points for the 2018 China Open that's why his ranking has dropped to 7 but he has nothing coming off at the WC he lost 1st round to Perry in 2018


Mark Williams has dropped like lead balloon from 3 to 11 in the provisional end of season rankings https://wpbsa.com/rankings/latest-provi ... -rankings/

And with points coming off for his World Open win coming off beginning of next season Mark Williams could be in a fight to stay in the top 16 without a good run in Sheffield.


This is why there should be a 1 year ranking system, not 2. How Williams can be #3 going into the WC is dumb

2 years also allows you to be lazy, with 1 year system you lose the points next year if you don't defend the points (as...what it should be but the sport of Snooker really likes to make things hard for themselves) and that would keep you motivated to do well/survive

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby SnookerFan

The_Abbott wrote:
D4P wrote:
The_Abbott wrote:next few are:

English Open
NI Open
Scottish Open
Isle of Man open
Isle of Wight Open
Isle of Dogs Open
Bognor Regis Masters
London Classic
Oh my god not another tournament in the UK Masters


All played in Milton Keynes.


Yes, there is only one MK do Robertson can't go to teh wrong venue


You never know with Robertson.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby SnookerEd25

I agree with Acé. A two-year ranking list gives a false picture as does, in my opinion, a money-list.

That’s why I pay little attention to either. I do look at the one year list more often as that gives a truer reflection to current form, but as that is also money based I take that with a pinch of salt.

I’ve long intended to implement my own ranking list as each season progresses but have never got round to it - too time consuming to study every professional match played to the nth degree.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby SnookerFan

SnookerEd25 wrote:I agree with Acé. A two-year ranking list gives a false picture as does, in my opinion, a money-list.

That’s why I pay little attention to either. I do look at the one year list more often as that gives a truer reflection to current form, but as that is also money based I take that with a pinch of salt.

I’ve long intended to implement my own ranking list as each season progresses but have never got round to it - too time consuming to study every professional match played to the nth degree.


With the flat-128, rankings mean less to an extent. If you're ranked 17th, in a lot of tournaments, you still qualify at the same stage at a lot of tournaments than the top-16. It could have some bearing on who you play early on, but that's about it.

Really, it's only The Masters and The Crucible where there is some huge advantage with being in the top-16. I mean, I guess you could count The Coral Series as well, but that's based on the one-year list rather than the official rankings anyway. So you could argue that's as much to do with season long form than the official top-16.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby lhpirnie

SnookerEd25 wrote:I agree with Acé. A two-year ranking list gives a false picture as does, in my opinion, a money-list.

That’s why I pay little attention to either. I do look at the one year list more often as that gives a truer reflection to current form, but as that is also money based I take that with a pinch of salt.

I’ve long intended to implement my own ranking list as each season progresses but have never got round to it - too time consuming to study every professional match played to the nth degree.

I have implemented a statistical Elo system, which is mathematically proven (for example, it predicts results better than any other). It's not a huge amount of code. But I wanted to include amateurs, and it's hard to get the results from amateur events to feed into the database. If WSF used a ranking system like that it would totally revolutionise the game from top to bottom. Amateurs would rise through the ranks, targeting their progress. Every tournament would count and there could be tiered/invitational events everywhere. You could have a ranking event in UK and one in China happening simultaneously, which is exactly what we need at the moment.


But the fact is, WST only understand 'ranking points' (stuck in the 1980's), and the money-list idea is for marketing purposes only - they want to boast about Judd Trump's earnings.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby McManusFan

lhpirnie wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:I agree with Acé. A two-year ranking list gives a false picture as does, in my opinion, a money-list.

That’s why I pay little attention to either. I do look at the one year list more often as that gives a truer reflection to current form, but as that is also money based I take that with a pinch of salt.

I’ve long intended to implement my own ranking list as each season progresses but have never got round to it - too time consuming to study every professional match played to the nth degree.

I have implemented a statistical Elo system, which is mathematically proven (for example, it predicts results better than any other). It's not a huge amount of code. But I wanted to include amateurs, and it's hard to get the results from amateur events to feed into the database. If WSF used a ranking system like that it would totally revolutionise the game from top to bottom. Amateurs would rise through the ranks, targeting their progress. Every tournament would count and there could be tiered/invitational events everywhere. You could have a ranking event in UK and one in China happening simultaneously, which is exactly what we need at the moment.


But the fact is, WST only understand 'ranking points' (stuck in the 1980's), and the money-list idea is for marketing purposes only - they want to boast about Judd Trump's earnings.


An ELO system would be pretty interesting, but wouldn't it overly reward shock one off upsets (like the Cahill one last year)?

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby SnookerEd25

lhpirnie wrote:I have implemented a statistical Elo system, which is mathematically proven (for example, it predicts results better than any other). It's not a huge amount of code. But I wanted to include amateurs, and it's hard to get the results from amateur events to feed into the database. If WSF used a ranking system like that it would totally revolutionise the game from top to bottom. Amateurs would rise through the ranks, targeting their progress. Every tournament would count and there could be tiered/invitational events everywhere. You could have a ranking event in UK and one in China happening simultaneously, which is exactly what we need at the moment.


But the fact is, WST only understand 'ranking points' (stuck in the 1980's), and the money-list idea is for marketing purposes only - they want to boast about Judd Trump's earnings.


Sounds good, LHP; is there any way we can access it? I'd be interested in having a look...

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby Acé

SnookerEd25 wrote:I agree with Acé.


This isn't something I often hear on this site but thanks LOL

And yeah prize money shouldn't reflect ranking points. I give example to another sport - tennis.

4 grand slams - 2000 ranking points each
9 masters - 1000 ranking points each
world tour finals - 1500 ranking points

then you have the smaller tournaments, ATP 500 are 500 ranking points and ATP 250 are 250 ranking points

always consistent, never changed. prize money is different across different grand slams and masters (small variation but in the same ballpark) but the ranking points never change. Also a 1 year ranking system. Simple as heck. No idea why Snooker can't follow the same principle. Just think there needs to be some form of consistency and it's why I always thought Snooker has always been a "growing" sport, not established to stone because things always keep changing.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby lhpirnie

McManusFan wrote:An ELO system would be pretty interesting, but wouldn't it overly reward shock one off upsets (like the Cahill one last year)?

Not by much. Ronnie played 44 matches that season, and had a couple of big wins earlier in the season. Cahill's rating also wasn't that bad - he did beat Murphy and Selby in addition to getting through to the Crucible. In my calculations he was inside the top 80 at that point.


It did hurt Ronnie's rating, but then so it should: he lost an important match against an outsider. But he was still No.1 at the end of the season.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby lhpirnie

Acé wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:I agree with Acé.


This isn't something I often hear on this site but thanks LOL

And yeah prize money shouldn't reflect ranking points. I give example to another sport - tennis.

4 grand slams - 2000 ranking points each
9 masters - 1000 ranking points each
world tour finals - 1500 ranking points

then you have the smaller tournaments, ATP 500 are 500 ranking points and ATP 250 are 250 ranking points

always consistent, never changed. prize money is different across different grand slams and masters (small variation but in the same ballpark) but the ranking points never change. Also a 1 year ranking system. Simple as heck. No idea why Snooker can't follow the same principle. Just think there needs to be some form of consistency and it's why I always thought Snooker has always been a "growing" sport, not established to stone because things always keep changing.

Well, unfortunately snooker has a habit of not changing, when the world changes around it... This idea of 'ranking points' (or money lists) started in the 1970's as a back-of-the-envelope means of seeding the World Championship.

If we have a 'Saudi Masters' with a £10M prize fund that will hopefully put paid to this stupid system. Especially since a number of players won't be able to go there.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby McManusFan

lhpirnie wrote:
McManusFan wrote:An ELO system would be pretty interesting, but wouldn't it overly reward shock one off upsets (like the Cahill one last year)?

Not by much. Ronnie played 44 matches that season, and had a couple of big wins earlier in the season. Cahill's rating also wasn't that bad - he did beat Murphy and Selby in addition to getting through to the Crucible. In my calculations he was inside the top 80 at that point.


It did hurt Ronnie's rating, but then so it should: he lost an important match against an outsider. But he was still No.1 at the end of the season.


Ah very interesting. In this system do the points get reset at regular time intervals, or could someone conceivably have a purple patch and then retire as no. 1 and stay there for years?

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby HappyCamper

McManusFan wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
McManusFan wrote:An ELO system would be pretty interesting, but wouldn't it overly reward shock one off upsets (like the Cahill one last year)?

Not by much. Ronnie played 44 matches that season, and had a couple of big wins earlier in the season. Cahill's rating also wasn't that bad - he did beat Murphy and Selby in addition to getting through to the Crucible. In my calculations he was inside the top 80 at that point.


It did hurt Ronnie's rating, but then so it should: he lost an important match against an outsider. But he was still No.1 at the end of the season.


Ah very interesting. In this system do the points get reset at regular time intervals, or could someone conceivably have a purple patch and then retire as no. 1 and stay there for years?


most elo type systems will have a points decay type parameter so if a player goes an extended time without playing they loose points. mostly to prevent players protecting their ranking by just not playing.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby McManusFan

This all sounds great. I really like the way it gives ameteurs a way to compare with the pros, I really hope world snooker adopt something like this. They could even keep the money list they seem to love for things like the Coral Series, and use this Elo system for the proper rankings.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby lhpirnie

HappyCamper wrote:
McManusFan wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
McManusFan wrote:An ELO system would be pretty interesting, but wouldn't it overly reward shock one off upsets (like the Cahill one last year)?

Not by much. Ronnie played 44 matches that season, and had a couple of big wins earlier in the season. Cahill's rating also wasn't that bad - he did beat Murphy and Selby in addition to getting through to the Crucible. In my calculations he was inside the top 80 at that point.


It did hurt Ronnie's rating, but then so it should: he lost an important match against an outsider. But he was still No.1 at the end of the season.


Ah very interesting. In this system do the points get reset at regular time intervals, or could someone conceivably have a purple patch and then retire as no. 1 and stay there for years?


most elo type systems will have a points decay type parameter so if a player goes an extended time without playing they loose points. mostly to prevent players protecting their ranking by just not playing.

Yes, the main complications are how to evaluate new players or inactive players. The usual approach is to have a 'provisional' value for a few matches, which protects their opponents from being unfairly damaged. There would be a rule about qualification for events. So if Stephen Hendry were to suddenly come out of retirement, he wouldn't maintain his old ranking and be seeded for the Crucible.


But apart from that, the rankings just roll on... It's used by lots of online games, as well as some international sports and games.

A few years ago, it was implemented nationally for bridge (the card game), which I took up after my snooker career ended unfortunately. I go to the club for an evening's play, and in the morning my ranking has been updated. All by computer. I'm currently ranked 945 out of 47000 active players (https://www.ebu.co.uk/ngs/).

They could do all that in snooker, but they prefer the 1977 way.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby lhpirnie

But back on topic.

I do think the Home Nations are the 'bread and butter' event that in some way define a season. I know it's a UK focus, but these are the events that give the lower players a decent chance (flat draws, best-of-7's) to have a result. And they give the top players decent match practice, without too much pressure to perform. As a spectator I like the fact all 128 players are there under one roof. How these will work under Covid regulations is a challenge.

Re: Is English Open going to be the next tournament after WC

Postby Wildey

Acé wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Acé wrote:Btw what happens to rankings with cancelled tournaments? Did Robertson lose 225k with China Open being cancelled?

Selby lost £225,000 points for the 2018 China Open that's why his ranking has dropped to 7 but he has nothing coming off at the WC he lost 1st round to Perry in 2018


Mark Williams has dropped like lead balloon from 3 to 11 in the provisional end of season rankings https://wpbsa.com/rankings/latest-provi ... -rankings/

And with points coming off for his World Open win coming off beginning of next season Mark Williams could be in a fight to stay in the top 16 without a good run in Sheffield.


This is why there should be a 1 year ranking system, not 2. How Williams can be #3 going into the WC is dumb

2 years also allows you to be lazy, with 1 year system you lose the points next year if you don't defend the points (as...what it should be but the sport of Snooker really likes to make things hard for themselves) and that would keep you motivated to do well/survive

2 year Ranking made sense with 6 tournaments but now there's 18 to 20 tournaments

If the rankings was based on 1 year the Crucible top 8 would be
1 Judd Trump 1,246,500
2 Shaun Murphy 413,000
3 John Higgins 358,500
4 Mark Selby 355,500
5 Stephen Maguire 352,000
6 Neil Robertson 324,500
7 Ding Junhui 291,250
8 Mark Allen. 225,500

Bearing in mind the points from the 2019 WC is included