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Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

Meo was definitely a lot better than Cripsey at the time. I think you're right that it's a false ranking. There were just too few ranking tournaments back then for the rankings to have real validity. A few tough draws had a massive effect. Look at who Meo had to play: Davis twice, Spencer, Parrott and Hallett.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

I remember that period well. Meo went into an alarming slump and seemed to be heading for oblivion, before making a mini-Mountjoy type recovery and lifting his first Ranker, along with his best run at the Crucible.

Couldn’t sustain it though, and did sink like a stone in the 90s. He’ll be way higher than Cripsey on the overall list though. I’m guessing somewhere around the 75 mark…

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby gmg

I defo see the logic to your list though do think it could go a bit further by including players prior to 1976 (I know there weren't many players or events but still) and also by allocating points for events in the early-80's that didn't have ranking status at the time. The 1981 Jameson is a perfect example as an open tournament that carried no points. There were others too, such as the Yamaha Masters. There could also be an argument for including non-open events, such as the Masters given that players had to earn their place in these. I remember Cue World publishing a ranking list in one of their 1983 editions that they claimed was a much more accurate reflection than the official list and which made for interesting reading.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

You're absolutely right, the more matches that are included, the more validity there is.
I considered a few things in choosing the events as I did (all official ranking events and nothing else):
If non-ranking events were included, what would be the rule for selection? And how would I be sure I'd included all that I should? I wasn't confident I'd be able to follow a rule I set.

How much time will it take? I spent a year inputting the data for every ranking event to get to the present day. I think that was enough for one man, really.

What would provide the best comparison with the official rankings? Well, the same set that were officially included.

Was there enough data from the ranking events alone to make my rankings valid? To be honest, not until about 2011. But I decided there was enough to make the present day rankings valid, and that was my ultimate goal when I started the project.

Prior to 2011, I'd rate my rankings at a 5/10. I'd give the official rankings a 3.
Post 2011, mine get an 8.5. The official rankings get a 7.
I'm supremely confident that from 1980 onwards, my rankings outperform the official ones.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 186
Name: Ian Burns
d.o.b.: 11/03/1985
Years as professional: 2012 - Present
Current ranking: 92

All-time ranking points: 207126

Number of days ranked: 4039
3650-day ranking range: 49-115
Highest rank: 49
Days at highest rank: 7 (10/11/2013-17/11/2013)
Age at highest rank: 28
Full ranking events played: 124
Minor ranking events played: 48
First event: 2010 PTC Event 1
Best ranking finish: Quarter Finals x2 - 2017 Paul Hunter Classic (aged 32) | 2018 Welsh Open (aged 32)

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 294 - 2018 Welsh Open
L128 w 4-1 v Jamie Curtis-Barrett
L64 w 4-3 v Neil Robertson
L32 w 4-2 v Sunny Akani
L16 w 4-3 v Liam Highfield
QF l 3-5 v Noppon Saengkham

2. 281 - 2015 Australian Open
L96 w 5-1 v Saqib Nasir
L64 w 5-2 v Michael Wasley
L48 w 5-4 v Rod Lawler
L32 w 5-3 v Xiao Guodong
L16 l 2-5 v Judd Trump

3. 258 - 2014 International Championship
L128 w 6-2 v Jack Lisowski
L64 w 6-5 v Dominic Dale
L32 w 6-3 v Craig Steadman
L16 l 2-6 v Michael White
Last edited by chengdufan on 13 Nov 2021, edited 2 times in total.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 188
Name: Warren Simpson
d.o.b.: 21/05/1922 (with thanks to Mick745)
d.o.d.: 28/06/1980
Years as professional: 1970-1980

All-time ranking points: 205567

Number of days ranked: 1829
3650-day ranking range: 11-23
Highest rank: 11
Days at highest rank: 359 (1/5/75-24/4/76)
Age at highest rank: 52-53
Full ranking events played: 2
First event: 1974 World Championship
Last event: 1975 World Championship

1974 Worlds
L31 w 8-3 v Jackie Rea
L24 suffering from flu, discharged himself from hospital on the day of the game but lost 2-8 v Bernard Bennett

1975 Worlds
L24 w 15-5 v Ron Mares
L16 l 11-15 v Ray Reardon
Last edited by chengdufan on 21 Oct 2021, edited 1 time in total.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

This is an interesting one.

Warren Simpson played in the final of the 1971 World Championship, losing 37-29 to John Spencer.

He only played in two official ranking events and he was already in his 50s at the time. He didn't perform particularly well in the 1974 World Championship due to flu. In 1975 he reached the last 16 where he pushed defending and eventual champion Ray Reardon hard.

187 in the all-time rankings is both surprisingly high, and at the same time way too low. How could someone who only played in two events and only reached the last 16 get so high? (A quirk of my system perhaps). But at the same time, his record shows he was a class above any of the players we have looked at so far. If ranking events were abound from the 1950s onwards he would no doubt be much closer to the top of the list.

I considered not including him and others who were only involved in the early years of the rankings. However, while 187 on the list for Simpson is an oddity, I decided to include him anyway. He is certainly worthy of being in the list of the all-time best snooker players, and this is where the data I have used has scientifically placed him. Whether he should be in at all, should be lower or should be higher, is a cause for debate for sure.

I am not adding a ranking timline for Simpson as I don't believe it adds anything.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

LDS wrote:Image

What are the chances that after you posted this, Warren SIMPSON came up??!!

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby Prop

chengdufan wrote:
LDS wrote:Image

What are the chances that after you posted this, Warren SIMPSON came up??!!


And on top of that, the old conspiracy theory that ‘The Simpsons predicts the future’!

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

I was under the impression the World Rankings were introduced in 1976, after the ‘76 World Championship which provided the basis for the first official list. Prior to that, there was a rudimentary ‘Order of Merit’ system to determine tournament seedlings. Therefore, unless I’m mistaken, Warren Simpson didn’t actually compete in any ‘official’ Ranking Tournaments? :chin:

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

I should add - good to see him in the list, though <ok>

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby Empire State Human

It was introduced in 1976, but when it was, the WPBSA retrospectively included the 3 previous years as well, going back to 1974!

I suppose it was to give a fairer representation than just basing the list on 1 tournament, but I hate the idea that you would include previous tournaments where the point structure wasn't announced, and you didn't know what you were playing for. Should've just introduced it from that point onwards.

They also changed the structure retrospectively again in the mid-80s, which caused a couple of people to be booted out of the top 16 who would've otherwise been safe.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

SnookerEd25 wrote:I was under the impression the World Rankings were introduced in 1976, after the ‘76 World Championship which provided the basis for the first official list. Prior to that, there was a rudimentary ‘Order of Merit’ system to determine tournament seedlings. Therefore, unless I’m mistaken, Warren Simpson didn’t actually compete in any ‘official’ Ranking Tournaments? :chin:

You may well be right. I'm basing it on cuetracker.
No real harm done in including the 74 abd 75 championships in, but it would be good to have a definitive answer on it. At the top end of these rankings, it has a significant impact on the players who played in those championships, Reardon especially.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby csprince

chengdufan wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:I was under the impression the World Rankings were introduced in 1976, after the ‘76 World Championship which provided the basis for the first official list. Prior to that, there was a rudimentary ‘Order of Merit’ system to determine tournament seedlings. Therefore, unless I’m mistaken, Warren Simpson didn’t actually compete in any ‘official’ Ranking Tournaments? :chin:

You may well be right. I'm basing it on cuetracker.
No real harm done in including the 74 abd 75 championships in, but it would be good to have a definitive answer on it. At the top end of these rankings, it has a significant impact on the players who played in those championships, Reardon especially.


you answered your own question mr dufan. simpson was ranked no20 in 76 and no22 in 77 having played the worlds in 74 and 75.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

Many thanks for input and clarification chaps! <ok>

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

Following the conclusion of the 2021 Northern Ireland Open, the 56 days between the 22nd August (British Open Final) and 17th October (NI Open Final) are now added to the all-time ranking consideration. This has resulted in a few changes in rank for the players already covered.

The biggest change is that Yan Bingtao has now entered the top 200, replacing John Read.

Here is the updated 187-200:

187 Ian Burns +1
188 Warren Simpson -1
189 Paddy Browne
190 Yu Delu
191 Joe Delaney
192 Noppon Saengkham +5
193 Marcel Gauvreau -1
194 Craig Steadman -1
195 Zhao Xintong +5
196 Graham Cripsey -2
197 Yan Bingtao +8
198 Simon Bedford -3
199 Gary Ponting -3
200 Cao Yupeng -2

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 187
Name: Leo Fernandez
d.o.b.: 05/07/1976
Years as professional: 1995-97 | 1998-2001 | 2002-06 | 07/08 | 2016-18

All-time ranking points: 206680

Number of days ranked: 4590
3650-day ranking range: 39-107
Highest rank: 39
Days at highest rank: 35 (24/10/1999 - 28/11/1999)
Age at highest rank: 23
Full ranking events played: 109
Minor ranking events played: 6
First event: 1995 UK Championship (aged 19)
Last event: 2021 Championship League (aged 45)
Best ranking finish: Last 16 - 2003 Welsh Open (aged 26)

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 511 - 1999 World Championship
L166 w 10-5 v Neil Robertson
L134 - w 10-5 v Steve Judd
L96 w 10-9 v Paul Davies
L64 w 10-9 v Bradley Jones
L48 w 10-5 v Brian Morgan
L32 l 3-10 v Ronnie O'Sullivan

2. 504 - 2004 World Championship
L128 w 10-9 v Paul Sweeny
L96 w 10-5 v Michael Rhodes
L80 w 10-8 v Sean Storey
L64 w 10-9 v Gerard Greene
L48 l 8-10 v Dominic Dale

3. 333 - 2003 Welsh Open
L128 w 5-4 v Martin Dziewialtowski
L96 w 5-3 v Mark Gray
L80 w 5-2 v Dave Finbow
L64 w 5-3 v Terry Murphy
L48 w 5-1 v Fergal O'Brien
L32 w 5-2 v Mark King
L16 l 1-5 v Paul Hunter
Last edited by chengdufan on 13 Nov 2021, edited 2 times in total.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby Prop

The latest sighting adds to the longstanding local legend, bringing thousands of tourists to the beauty spot each year. But local businessman, Alf McCullock, believes it can be explained.

“Aye. Lassen. We see it all the time. I’ve lived here sixty years. It’s no monster, I’ll tell ye. It’s either wake from a boat, debris on the surface, or Leo Fernandez’s ranking timeline.”

Ben Smith reporting for The Independent, from the Scottish highlands

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 185
Name: Bill Oliver
d.o.b. 03/12/1948
Years as professional: 1983-1994

All-time ranking points: 208932

Number of days ranked: 3464
3650-day ranking range: 39-121
Highest rank: 39
Days at highest rank: 35 (28/10/1984 - 2/12/1984)
Age at highest rank: 35
Full ranking events played: 89
First event: 1983 Profesional Players Tournament
Last event: 1995 British Open
Best ranking finish: L32 x2 - 1989 Asian Open (aged 41) | 1992 Grand Prix (aged 44)

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 365 - 1987 World Championship
L128 w 10-5 v Pascal Burke
L96 w 10-2 v Patsy Fagan
L64 w 10-5 v George Scott
L48 l 7-10 v Dean Reynolds

2. 328 - 1988 World Championship
L128 w 10-9 v Dave Chalmers
L96 w 10-6 v Ray Reardon
L64 w 10-2 v Alain Robidoux
L48 l 6-10 v Cliff Wilson

3. 298 - 1984 World Championship
L96 w 10-3 v John Dunning
L64 w 10-2 v Clive Everton
L48 l 8-10 v Rex Williams

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

Most of the players in this section of the rankings could well be classed as journeymen, and Oliver appears to be almost the definition of one. Ten years in the game, winning one or two matches in most tournaments but never getting past the last 32. Never playing at the Crucible...

He only turned pro when he was 34 and we are left wondering if he could have had more impact if he'd been a pro at a younger age.

He's also one of those, a few of whom have appeared in this list so far, who got found out when the game became open entry in the early 90s.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby LDS

Looking at his wikipedia page, he's already got a pretty good claim to fame, in that he replaced Rex Williams on the snooker board in the late 90s. So he's probably very well known to anyone who takes an interest in the management side of snooker. He's probably on lots of photos hanging in head office. And done quite well out of the sport. Also owns a snooker club, so likely has strong local fame.

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby SnookerEd25

I thought I had seen him play once, but it turned out I was thinking of Billy Kelly :emb:

Re: All-time ranking list

Postby chengdufan

All-time rank 184
Name: Bob Harris
d.o.b. 12/03/1956
Years as professional: 1982 - 1995

All-time ranking points: 213943

Number of days ranked: 3408
3650-day ranking range: 42-123
Highest rank: 42
Days at highest rank: 29 (3/11/1990 - 2/12/1990)
Age at highest rank: 34
Full ranking events played: 87
First event: 1982 International Open (aged 26)
Last event: 1995 British Open (aged 39)
Best ranking finish: Last 32 x5 - 1985 British Open (aged 28) |1985 Matchroom Trophy (aged 29) | 1985 Grand Prix (aged 29) | 1987 Classic (aged 30) | 1990 Asian Open (aged 34)

Best three events by rankings revisit points:
1. 232 - 1988 World Championship
L96 w 10-1 v Patsy Fagan
L64 w 10-0 v Eddie Sinclair
L48 l 4-10 v Eddie Charlton

2. 223 - 1990 Asian Open
L128 w 5-2 v Steve Meakin
L96 w 5-2 v John Spencer
L64 w 5-3 v Steve James
L32 l 3-5 v Silvino Francisco

3. 214 - 1991 World Championship
L128 w 10-5 v Mike Darrington
L96 w 10-9 v Steve Longworth
L64 l 7-10 v Jim Wych
Last edited by chengdufan on 21 Oct 2021, edited 1 time in total.


   

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