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Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby HustleKing

Finally, the old school snobbish mentality of never wanting the WC to leave the Crucible (even once a goddamn century!) is being brought to light

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby SnookerFan

HustleKing wrote:Finally, the old school snobbish mentality of never wanting the WC to leave the Crucible (even once a goddamn century!) is being brought to light


I've been to The Crucible so much I kind of got bored of going. And even I wouldn't want it to move permanently.

This year as an exception is one thing.

I did once say I'd never go to a World Championship held anywhere else in the world, even if was being played at the end of my road.

This year, I'd consider it. Just because of of extenuating circumstances.

Though, as improved as the Ally Pally is, it's a much different arena to The Crucible.
Last edited by SnookerFan on 28 Mar 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby csprince

SnookerFan wrote:
HustleKing wrote:Finally, the old school snobbish mentality of never wanting the WC to leave the Crucible (even once a goddamn century!) is being brought to light


I've been to The Crucible so much I kind of got bored of going. And even I wouldn't want it to move permanently.

This year as an exception is one thing.

that's what i meant.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby SnookerFan

csprince wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
HustleKing wrote:Finally, the old school snobbish mentality of never wanting the WC to leave the Crucible (even once a goddamn century!) is being brought to light


I've been to The Crucible so much I kind of got bored of going. And even I wouldn't want it to move permanently.

This year as an exception is one thing.

that's what i meant.


What, that this year is an exception?

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

Despite the fact I've been to many venues around the world, I have never been to the Crucible. I prefer to watch only multi-table set-ups live.

But I do think this obsession with a provincial theatre is damaging the future of the game. There are several problems with the Crucible theatre itself, but the biggest is that the table conditions are usually inadequate. This is unacceptable for a 'World Championship'.

We are kidding ourselves if we somehow believe in 'magic'. To expand into a truly large-scale global sport, snooker must have a credible large-scale World Championship. TV fans would barely notice the difference, and it would open the game up to new audiences which is vital. It is obvious that no sport can survive if it focuses solely on existing fans, those who date back to the 1980's.

Clearly, comparisons with the football World Cup and Olympics are extreme, but look at tennis, rugby, cricket. Even table tennis and badminton have larger venues with international media centres, and various corporate involvement and deals. As we saw with Alexandria Palace, a modern venue could probuce a magnificent World Championship.

I'm always struck by how backward-looking snooker is. At the moment journalists are filling in the time writing articles of the history (post-1977). After several weeks of this it's going to look like an obituary of snooker, which could be prophetic if the recovery after corona isn't ambitious enough. Where are the interviews with young players, predictions of the stars of the future, discussions of possible new formats?

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby csprince

lhpirnie wrote:Despite the fact I've been to many venues around the world, I have never been to the Crucible. I prefer to watch only multi-table set-ups live.

But I do think this obsession with a provincial theatre is damaging the future of the game. There are several problems with the Crucible theatre itself, but the biggest is that the table conditions are usually inadequate. This is unacceptable for a 'World Championship'.

We are kidding ourselves if we somehow believe in 'magic'. To expand into a truly large-scale global sport, snooker must have a credible large-scale World Championship. TV fans would barely notice the difference, and it would open the game up to new audiences which is vital. It is obvious that no sport can survive if it focuses solely on existing fans, those who date back to the 1980's.

Clearly, comparisons with the football World Cup and Olympics are extreme, but look at tennis, rugby, cricket. Even table tennis and badminton have larger venues with international media centres, and various corporate involvement and deals. As we saw with Alexandria Palace, a modern venue could probuce a magnificent World Championship.

I'm always struck by how backward-looking snooker is. At the moment journalists are filling in the time writing articles of the history (post-1977). After several weeks of this it's going to look like an obituary of snooker, which could be prophetic if the recovery after corona isn't ambitious enough. Where are the interviews with young players, predictions of the stars of the future, discussions of possible new formats?

good post.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby HustleKing

Makes you wonder what the BBC will do with the snooker TC's post the retirements of the "keep snooker the way it is merchants" like Taylor, Virgo and even Hazel Irvine. Will they want to see the TC's in snooker move elsewhere occasionally (at least inside the UK) and will they be as enthusiastic about the Crucible given it's outdated-ness as noted above? Or will Eurosport be the sole UK and Ireland broadcaster with an outspoken Ronnie perhaps becoming increasingly interested in change for the game?

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

HustleKing wrote:Makes you wonder what the BBC will do with the snooker TC's post the retirements of the "keep snooker the way it is merchants" like Taylor, Virgo and even Hazel Irvine. Will they want to see the TC's in snooker move elsewhere occasionally (at least inside the UK) and will they be as enthusiastic about the Crucible given it's outdated-ness as noted above? Or will Eurosport be the sole UK and Ireland broadcaster with an outspoken Ronnie perhaps becoming increasingly interested in change for the game?

The BBC don't really do 'retirement'. David Dimbleby has only recently stopped Question Time aged 81, but insists he's 'doing other projects'. David Attenbrough is still going aged 93. Basically, the baby-boomer generation consider themselves far too indispensible to ever leave it to others, and unfortunately the British TV-watching public demand familiar faces or voices. Meanwhile, younger people are online...

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby SnookerFan

Out of interest, how many people who want it to move from The Crucible have ever been there to watch snooker?

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

SnookerFan wrote:Out of interest, how many people who want it to move from The Crucible have ever been there to watch snooker?

No, that's a fair point.

The reason why I don't really approve of the Crucible is that I don't believe 'the history of the venue' is the most important thing. It's just a theatre.

In my view the more important parties are the players (who care about facilities), the TV audience (millions of people) and the media (who promote the event). The spectators who get to go there are privileged, but few in number.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

Dan-cat wrote:Crucible is magic. I hope it never leaves. We are a back room club game that got lucky and it's a part of our quirky heritage.

As I said, I don't believe in magic, or fairies in other places. Do you mean 'nostalgia'? That may be something we feel (I've been watching since 1979), but we can't just be thinking about ourselves. The World Championship could be magnificent in a larger venue.

If snooker doesn't move ahead with the times - as it did in 1977 - then it will die.

Sometime in the next century, people will be playing 9-Ball, and snooker will be like billiards, a footnote.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby Iranu

Dan-cat wrote:Crucible is magic. I hope it never leaves. We are a back room club game that got lucky and it's a part of our quirky heritage.

I don’t believe this inferiority complex in snooker is helpful.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

Iranu wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Crucible is magic. I hope it never leaves. We are a back room club game that got lucky and it's a part of our quirky heritage.

I don’t believe this inferiority complex in snooker is helpful.

Yes exactly. The reason why it moved to the Crucible in 1977 was because of an ambitious TV drive. Now there needs to be a global drive. I'm not saying it should move overseas, but there needs to be space for media, etc.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby PLtheRef

lhpirnie wrote:Despite the fact I've been to many venues around the world, I have never been to the Crucible. I prefer to watch only multi-table set-ups live.

But I do think this obsession with a provincial theatre is damaging the future of the game. There are several problems with the Crucible theatre itself, but the biggest is that the table conditions are usually inadequate. This is unacceptable for a 'World Championship'.

We are kidding ourselves if we somehow believe in 'magic'. To expand into a truly large-scale global sport, snooker must have a credible large-scale World Championship. TV fans would barely notice the difference, and it would open the game up to new audiences which is vital. It is obvious that no sport can survive if it focuses solely on existing fans, those who date back to the 1980's.

Clearly, comparisons with the football World Cup and Olympics are extreme, but look at tennis, rugby, cricket. Even table tennis and badminton have larger venues with international media centres, and various corporate involvement and deals. As we saw with Alexandria Palace, a modern venue could probuce a magnificent World Championship.

I'm always struck by how backward-looking snooker is. At the moment journalists are filling in the time writing articles of the history (post-1977). After several weeks of this it's going to look like an obituary of snooker, which could be prophetic if the recovery after corona isn't ambitious enough. Where are the interviews with young players, predictions of the stars of the future, discussions of possible new formats?


You make some very interesting points - but why would several weeks of journalists writing about snooker in the past be the equivalent of writing its obituary? Its not as if the game is in its nadir is it.

With regards to venues, I'd prefer it to remain at the Crucible, then again, I would naturally say that because I live four miles away. - The talk about venues is a different one because so many events have become synonymous with a place. The FA Cup with Wembley (and even when it moved for a short-while it had a focused venue in Cardiff), Wimbledon and the Augusta National with the Masters Golf.

Because of snookers nature as an 'individuals sport' it becomes more apparent that the major events have a more consistent venue. This is not just snooker but the same with many others sports that are contested by individuals. The World Darts is at the same venue every year, the Tour De France always finishes with the Champs Elysees. The World Bowls has been at Potters for many years. It would be interesting to see bidding for the World Championship and if it was to go to different venues - but that's not the individual sports way.

Focusing on the Crucible isn't damaging to snooker. Nor is holding it in some regard of nostalgia or magic. You mention the words Crucible Theatre to anyone, the first thing that they recall is snooker.You ask people where they were when Dennis sank that black in 1985 (they can tell you where they were or if they were watching). You ask someone where they were during any other Final - even a gripping one then its likely going to be harder for them to recall.

You ask a youngster growing up in the game, what's their ambition? To be World Champion and play at the Crucible? You ask any player on tour who has never qualified for it their ambition? to reach the Crucible. - We as fans refer to it as getting ready for 'the Crucible'. The Theatre evokes the memories and nostalgia because so many of our sports most memorable moments have been played out in that arena.

But on the flip side, if the World Championship was to move, I think even with the odd protest and the odd 60 second lasting promise from those vowing never to watch it again, I think it wouldn't see the event lose any interest.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby lhpirnie

PLtheRef wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:...


You make some very interesting points - but why would several weeks of journalists writing about snooker in the past be the equivalent of writing its obituary? Its not as if the game is in its nadir is it.

With regards to venues, I'd prefer it to remain at the Crucible, then again, I would naturally say that because I live four miles away. - The talk about venues is a different one because so many events have become synonymous with a place. The FA Cup with Wembley (and even when it moved for a short-while it had a focused venue in Cardiff), Wimbledon and the Augusta National with the Masters Golf.

Because of snookers nature as an 'individuals sport' it becomes more apparent that the major events have a more consistent venue. This is not just snooker but the same with many others sports that are contested by individuals. The World Darts is at the same venue every year, the Tour De France always finishes with the Champs Elysees. The World Bowls has been at Potters for many years. It would be interesting to see bidding for the World Championship and if it was to go to different venues - but that's not the individual sports way.

Focusing on the Crucible isn't damaging to snooker. Nor is holding it in some regard of nostalgia or magic. You mention the words Crucible Theatre to anyone, the first thing that they recall is snooker.You ask people where they were when Dennis sank that black in 1985 (they can tell you where they were or if they were watching). You ask someone where they were during any other Final - even a gripping one then its likely going to be harder for them to recall.

You ask a youngster growing up in the game, what's their ambition? To be World Champion and play at the Crucible? You ask any player on tour who has never qualified for it their ambition? to reach the Crucible. - We as fans refer to it as getting ready for 'the Crucible'. The Theatre evokes the memories and nostalgia because so many of our sports most memorable moments have been played out in that arena.

But on the flip side, if the World Championship was to move, I think even with the odd protest and the odd 60 second lasting promise from those vowing never to watch it again, I think it wouldn't see the event lose any interest.

Well I think 'World Championship' and 'Crucible' have been used so interchangeably, people conflate the two. That's why I say 'obsession'. It's just a theatre! I don't think TV watchers would even notice, except perhaps that their coverage would be better. As for Dennis's black in 1985, we have to build on that, not hark back to it. It really doesn't matter to anyone younger than 40. And I remember where I was - at home watching the TV.

Other sports may have kept touch with venues, but Wembley, Wimbledon and others have undergone substantial upgrades. I like the idea of Sheffield (you'll be pleased to hear!), but it has to be a state-of-the-art venue.

But yes, as a former amateur player, my strongest argument is that the table conditions are unacceptable.

Incidentally, we don't know if snooker's future is so assured: coronavirus might have a bigger impact that we'd hoped. I wasn't joking with the 'obituary' comment, except that I meant it was sounding like an obituary, not that it was one. But who knows how the chips might fall after this nightmare subsides. Some top players might not be prepared to take prizemoney cuts, and go their own way, ... I think it's vital for everyone (i.e. media) to start talking up what a great game snooker is for the future.

Anyway, nice debate, thanks for responding!

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby McManusFan

I'm not sure how a new venue would improve the coverage. Let's not forget that the VIP area for the masters actively made the TV coverage worse by changing the camera angle.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby SnookerFan

lhpirnie wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Crucible is magic. I hope it never leaves. We are a back room club game that got lucky and it's a part of our quirky heritage.

As I said, I don't believe in magic, or fairies in other places. Do you mean 'nostalgia'? That may be something we feel (I've been watching since 1979), but we can't just be thinking about ourselves. The World Championship could be magnificent in a larger venue.

If snooker doesn't move ahead with the times - as it did in 1977 - then it will die.

Sometime in the next century, people will be playing 9-Ball, and snooker will be like billiards, a footnote.


To be fair, I don't believe anybody says that there are fairies living in The Crucible Theatre.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby Holden Chinaski

SnookerFan wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Crucible is magic. I hope it never leaves. We are a back room club game that got lucky and it's a part of our quirky heritage.

As I said, I don't believe in magic, or fairies in other places. Do you mean 'nostalgia'? That may be something we feel (I've been watching since 1979), but we can't just be thinking about ourselves. The World Championship could be magnificent in a larger venue.

If snooker doesn't move ahead with the times - as it did in 1977 - then it will die.

Sometime in the next century, people will be playing 9-Ball, and snooker will be like billiards, a footnote.


To be fair, I don't believe anybody says that there are fairies living in The Crucible Theatre.

I do.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby HappyCamper

I am mostly so surprised to read that Taylor actually watched the Gibraltar open.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby SnookerFan

HappyCamper wrote:I am mostly so surprised to read that Taylor actually watched the Gibraltar open.


He probably thought he was watching The Crucible.

Re: Dennis Taylor Interview

Postby Juddernaut88

Would be nice if Eurosport can show other finals too not just ones in the last year. Maybe show classic matches in the 80s, 90s, 2000's and the past decade.