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Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby GJ

his story will be so predictable

plenty of others are doing it snooker is full of cheats and they get away with it and an innocent man like him is found guilty.


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Roland

Dannyboy if you read the judgement they explain it all in the first couple of pages and it's pretty easy to justify. The evidence is so incriminating, the probability of it all being all a big misunderstanding and an innocent man sent to the gallows is probably around 0.05%.

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby GJ

Sonny wrote:Dannyboy if you read the judgement they explain it all in the first couple of pages and it's pretty easy to justify. The evidence is so incriminating, the probability of it all being all a big misunderstanding and an innocent man sent to the gallows are probably around 0.05%.



thats abit high

its 0 %

<ok>

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Sickpotter

Sonny wrote:I doubt that. He's a scumbag, makes me sick all these people coming out feeling sorry for him.


Gotta watch the sympathizers, these people would do the same thing given the opportunity.

Lowlifes really who think if they can't earn it they're entitled to take it :sad:

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Roland

He said that Higgins text him after the PL match to give support. Other reports say Higgins was very angry to be associated with the match. Anyway, I thought this statement was coming today, or will it be in tomorrow's papers? Or will this be the last we hear from him on the subject?

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby snooky147

Sonny wrote:He said that Higgins text him after the PL match to give support. Other reports say Higgins was very angry to be associated with the match. Anyway, I thought this statement was coming today, or will it be in tomorrow's papers? Or will this be the last we hear from him on the subject?

I doubt it will be the last we hear from him on this. He does not appear to be the type to go quietly.
:chin:

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Roland

Hector Nunns on Twitter:

"Intrigued if Stephen Lee got a buyer for his tale this weekend. I know he got a lot of rejections - but someone usually bites as price drops"

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby gallantrabbit

He won't get the price he's looking for. You might get the Scum offer him 10k, but that'll be about it. There's no value, no-one's interested. Better if he went quietly and he might still find a place on the US pool tour. If he makes too much noise even they'll reject him.

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby hendry_fan

Sonny wrote:Dannyboy if you read the judgement they explain it all in the first couple of pages and it's pretty easy to justify. The evidence is so incriminating, the probability of it all being all a big misunderstanding and an innocent man sent to the gallows is probably around 0.05%.






I,ve been very busy lately and have,nt had much time to follow this Stephen Lee stuff properly,


Can you please tell me where i can read the so-called EVIDENCE put against him Sonny,when i have time i,d like to read through all these pages of EVIDENCE as i find this story very interesting.



The other thing that i find very intresting is,....if the EVIDENCE against Lee is so incriminating,how on earth will he be able to show otherwise and show that he,s innocent?!. :?

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Raziel

hendry_fan wrote:The other thing that i find very interesting is,....if the EVIDENCE against Lee is so incriminating,how on earth will he be able to show otherwise and show that he,s innocent?!. :?

The simple answer is that he won't be able to!


I find it hard to believe that Stephen Lee has said that he is going to appeal his guilty verdict.

Is he totally naive? Is he some kind if Walter Mitty character who lives in a pretend world of his own imagination? Is he just plain stupid? Or is he an actual villain. Maybe he's mixture of all four. Or maybe he's something else entirely. Who knows?

However, regarding any appeal he tries to make, I'm sorry to dash the hopes of any Stephen Lee fans reading this. But, after having read the judgment against Stephen Lee, I have to say that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE that he could win an appeal. And I cannot understand why Stephen Lee does not seem to realize this. If Stephen Lee appeals his guilty verdict it is pretty much 100% certain that he will lose once again.

I personally believe that Stephen Lee is as guilty as sin! But, even if he was NOT actually guilty, the only way he could win an appeal would be to provide evidence that actually refutes the evidence against him.

This is because of the way civil cases work. To win a civil case you don't have to prove that someone is "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" like you would need to do in a criminal case. To win a civil case you only have to show evidence that it's "more likely" that they are guilty than they are innocent. This criterion for determining guilt or innocence is known as "the balance of probabilities test." (Re B [2008] UKHL 35 per Lord Hoffmann.)

We don't need to worry about the exact wording of this "balance of probabilities test". But it means that, in effect, if a Judge, or a Magistrate, or in this case Adam Lewis QC, thinks the chances of someone being guilty is 51%, and the chances of them being innocent is 49%, then he has the legal obligation to find them guilty.

So, with this in mind, let's completely ignore all the "suspicious betting patterns" evidence, and also ignore all the text message and phone call "collusion" evidence. And let's just have a look at a couple of paragraphs of the judgment which detail what Stephen Lee said about any payments he received:

"The WPBSA pointed out that if Mr Lee wished to make the case that all the payments, which on their face were very odd and appeared designed to conceal, were in fact simple distributions of the money that he was entitled to from his career as a professional snooker player, he could be expected to produce the records of his wife’s account and the management accounts of Mr Clague, and make good the paper trail. The fact that he refused to do this suggested strongly that those documents would not support his assertions."

"If it had been true that all payments could be attributed to distribution of his earnings by his manager, to sponsorship payments, to referral payments, or to the payment of a loan, then one could expect to have seen documentary and witness evidence to account for the payments. Instead, Mr Lee has refused to provide such documents."

As you can see from the bold text above, Stephen Lee refused to provide certain documents. And this prompted Adam Lewis QC to say that Stephen Lee's refusal to do this suggested strongly that those documents would not support his assertions.

If you are innocent, and you have documents which may be able to prove your innocence, then why would you refuse to provide such documents?

Seriously, how does this make Stephen Lee look? Obviously just refusing to provide those documents alone already makes him look as guilty as sin!

And if we also look at all the circumstantial "suspicious betting patterns" evidence and all the circumstantial text message and phone call "collusion" evidence, how is Stephen Lee going to look after taking all that extra evidence into account as well? It doesn't take a genius to realize that he is going to look even more guilty.

Basically, in a civil case, if the evidence against you makes you look guilty. Then you make yourself look even more guilty by refusing to provide documents which may refute this evidence. Then, on the balance of probabilities, that is ample evidence to find that you are guilty!

It said on the World Snooker website that Stephen Lee changed his legal team three times before deciding to go into the hearing without legal representation. I cannot believe that, during Stephen Lee's time with those three different legal teams, that they would have failed to tell him how civil cases work. Surely they must have told him!

So I have no idea why Stephen Lee would have gone into that hearing and protested his innocence in the way he did. Taking into account the way civil cases work, the way Stephen Lee presented his case gave him literally a ZERO chance of winning. Frankly, I find the whole thing incredible!

Anyway, going back to Stephen Lee's decision to appeal the judgment. If Stephen Lee does try to appeal the judgment, then the appeal Judge is going to read the previous guilty judgment.

And what is that appeal Judge going to want to see? He is going to want to see every single document that Stephen Lee refused to provide at his previous hearing.

If Stephen Lee again refuses to provide those documents, he will once again on the balance of probabilities be found guilty.

And, if by some miracle, Stephen Lee does provide all those documents, they will be scrutinized by expert legal minds who will find every single discrepancy in them. And then, if Stephen Lee cannot explain any discrepancies pretty much perfectly, he will once again on the balance of probabilities be found guilty. (But, in reality, this point is completely moot. He won't produce these documents. Because, if these documents did provide any "proof of innocence", even the daftest person would obviously have produced them at the earlier hearing.)

Maybe it's also possible that Stephen Lee might be daft enough to try to concoct a different cock-and-bull story for his appeal than the one he used in his previous hearing. If he does do this, then the appeal Judge will say to him something along the lines of "This is a different story to the one you gave in your previous hearing. Were you lying then, or are you lying now? Or were you lying in your previous hearing and now also lying again in this appeal hearing? If Stephen Lee does come up with a new story, whatever it is, he will be seen as having definitely lied in at least one hearing, and possibly lied in both hearings. Therefore, as a proven liar and an unreliable witness, he will once again on the balance of probabilities be found guilty.

Honestly, the way civil cases work is not rocket science. And ANY lawyer in the entire country would explain how civil cases work to Stephen Lee if he paid them to do it.

Also, ANY lawyer in the entire country would also explain to Stephen Lee that, if he appeals the decision and loses, he will be hit with another legal costs bill which will probably be as least as much, if not more, than the £40,000 he has already been ordered to pay. And he also stands a chance of getting an even longer ban than the one he already has. (We all know that lengthening the ban would make no difference anyway. He's not going to start playing again at the age of 50. But sometimes Judges like to set an example and send a message which basically says "You stood in my courtroom and tried to take me for an idiot Here is your extra punishment".

Furthermore, due to cutbacks in Legal Aid, the fact that Stephen Lee already has numerous unpaid CCJs against him, and the fact that he also now owes World Snooker £40,000, I doubt that even the scummiest of lawyers (the ones who will happily pursue completely un-winnable cases as long as they are getting paid) would even agree to take on his appeal case without being paid in advance. And, from the number of unpaid CCJs that he has against him, Stephen Lee does not seem to be the type of person who is keen on paying for anything in advance. So, if Stephen Lee is actually daft enough to try to appeal the judgment, he might have to represent himself again. And, this time, he will have to represent himself in a courtroom in front of a High Court Judge. Honestly, that kind of thing hardly ever ends well, even if you are a totally switched-on kind of person. So God only knows how someone like Stephen Lee would get on in that kind of situation. I think "not very well" might be a bit of an understatement. lol.

Anyway, to sum up, I believe that we have basically heard the last of Stephen Lee, at least in regards to snooker.

It wouldn't surprise me if he tried to make five or ten grand by selling some kind of hyped-up snooker "expose" story to the Daily Star or some other sensationalist paper. And I doubt that he will be concerned about any potential damage that this may cause to the game from which he earned about two million pounds, or to the potential livelihoods of his former fellow snooker professionals.

Then maybe he will try his luck on the pool circuit, if they will have him.

I don't know what he's going to do now. But, whatever it is, it definitely won't be successfully appealing his guilty verdict.

LOL. I've just read this post back and realized how long it is. Sorry about that. But I tend to get a bit carried away when I've got a bee in my bonnet about something. :-D

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Casey

I doubt he will appeal, the next thing will be the damaging story in the paper. I'm not sure he will move to the US to join their tour, even if they did take him he would be starting at the bottom. You need capital to start that kind of venture and I would think he has zero.

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Roland

I don't think he'll play pool in America either. He'd have to uproot family and also it's doubtful the Yanks would give him a permit if he's got unpaid CCJs to his name.

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby hendry_fan

Fantastic post Raziel!. :-)



After reading all the stuff on this case against Lee,i also have to say,it looks very narrow for him.



There,s definatley some good evidence against him but bottom line is,as Raziel points out,if he can produce documents,evidence which could,would paint a different picture then why has,nt,why can,t he deliver them!,that alone says it all really.

If i had any kind of facts,documents which could paint a diffrent picture then i,d have them put forward as soon as i can,i mean who would,nt.



Lee said that he,d make a statement this week which will paint a differnt picture and be fact,but so far he still has,nt delivered any facts,documents whatsoever,(maybe he,s still looking for them or mabye they got lost in a storm :-D ).



So come on Mr Lee,show us another side of the story,show us all the FACTS and DOCUMENTS which could paint a diffrent picture for you,were all intrested to see them. :-)

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Raziel

Thanks everyone for all the positive comments about my post. :-)

I am 55 years old now, and I have loved the game of snooker from the time I was about 12 years old. I was quite a good player when I was younger. And, in my late teens and early twenties, it was my dream to become a professional snooker player. But, however hard and however long I practiced, I could never make the grade. When I played a top amateur player, I would virtually always lose. In the end, it eventually dawned on me that being able to knock in century breaks playing my friends did not mean that I was anywhere near good enough to become a professional player. So basically my dream ended there. But I never lost my love of the game. And, being able to play to a reasonable level myself, I gained a deep respect for how good the top professionals really are.

So you can imagine how I felt when I read that Stephen Lee, a member of the top 16 who had already earned about two million pounds from the game, and was actively living the dream that I could not attain, had resorted to match fixing to earn a few extra bucks. I was absolutely disgusted, and that was what prompted me to write that extremely long post above.

I must be honest and say that, when he was suspended about a year ago, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But, after reading the judgment, it was blindingly obvious that he was as guilty as sin and had been "at it" for years.

And, to add insult to injury, after the guilty judgment, he came out and said that he's done nothing wrong and was going to employ a lawyer to prove his innocence.

Stephen Lee must think that everyone else is as stupid as he is!

To attempt to appeal that judgment beyond ridiculous. For a start, if he was going to employ a lawyer, he should had done so for the first hearing, if only to stop him from shooting his mouth off. Because now, in any appeal hearing, they will use any and all of what he said (or did not say) in the first hearing against him. Stephen Lee can't change his "story", because, if he does, the Judge will see that he must have lied in either the previous hearing or the present hearing, and possibly in both hearings. And if he "conveniently remembers" something favourable to his case in his appeal hearing, which he could not remember in the first hearing, the Judge will almost certainly see it as "invention" rather than genuine recall. Judges are highly intelligent and experienced people. And, as such, they are extremely good at telling the difference between honesty and bullcrap. The last thing you want to do is take a Judge for an idiot. Because, if you do, they will punish you - hard.

To win an appeal hearing, Stephen Lee will have to prove on the balance of probability that he is innocent. He will have to come up with provable, innocent explanations for all the evidence against him. And, as I said in my earlier post, from the content of his guilty judgment, that is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE

Stephen Lee is up the creek with a paddle made entirely of bullcrap!

I did find one thing Stephen Lee said particularly amusing. Paragraph 39 of the Judgment says:

"Mr Lee pointed out with some force that it would be pointless for him to fix matches. He would be much better off seeking to win and maximising his honestly earned prize money. Mr Lee submitted that a great deal more prize money can be honestly earned by playing well than can be derived from match fixing of the sort alleged here, where the WPBSA can only point to negligible sums which it mischaracterised as being rewards. Mr Lee further submitted that the risk of being caught was so great, and the consequence of being caught so damaging, in particular to his ability to support his family, that he would never contemplate fixing a match."

This pathetic "Why would I risk doing such a thing?" defense is so common that probably every prosecution barrister in the country must have heard it hundreds of times.

And, every time, the prosecution barrister will respond with: "You did it because you didn't think you were going to get caught!"

Then the criminal in the dock usually just stands there in silence, looking like he's just swallowed a billiard ball!

Well, I think I have said enough about Stephen Lee. He is gone from snooker and he will definitely not be coming back.

Goodbye Stephen Lee, the exit is over there, and don't bang your ass on the door on the way out!

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby Andre147

hendry_fan wrote:Just found this on youtube,it,s one of the 7 matches Lee was guilty of match-fixing.

http://youtu.be/ky0HKesFOT0



Both were verrrry poor in this frame,watchin this,one would think there both tryin to deliberatley lose it!. <laugh>


Surely Hendry wasn't in it as well? <laugh> Just kidding mate, yes it's clear Lee didn't want to win that frame, though he did win that match 9-7 because the arrangment was that he only lost that frame and not the whole match.

Maybe Hendry saw Lee missing so many that he too fell into that spiral of constant errors that happens so many times in matches where it seems both players can't pot a ball because 1 is missing so many and the other naturally follows the pattern. On the other hand, it too happens on the reverse side, where one player suddently starts playing out of his skin and the other responds in fashion too, most common amongst top players of course.

We didn't need any more evidence, but this video and that PM match against Higgins are just a few clear examples as to why he is such a disgrace to this sport.

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby hendry_fan

Andre147 PGC wrote:
hendry_fan wrote:Just found this on youtube,it,s one of the 7 matches Lee was guilty of match-fixing.

http://youtu.be/ky0HKesFOT0



Both were verrrry poor in this frame,watchin this,one would think there both tryin to deliberatley lose it!. <laugh>


Surely Hendry wasn't in it as well? <laugh> Just kidding mate, yes it's clear Lee didn't want to win that frame, though he did win that match 9-7 because the arrangment was that he only lost that frame and not the whole match.

Maybe Hendry saw Lee missing so many that he too fell into that spiral of constant errors that happens so many times in matches where it seems both players can't pot a ball because 1 is missing so many and the other naturally follows the pattern. On the other hand, it too happens on the reverse side, where one player suddently starts playing out of his skin and the other responds in fashion too, most common amongst top players of course.

We didn't need any more evidence, but this video and that PM match against Higgins are just a few clear examples as to why he is such a disgrace to this sport.




Hendry was probably thinkin,how the hell did i win that frame!. <laugh>

Re: Stephen Lee - 12 year ban for match fixing

Postby hendry_fan

Here are another 2 matches in which Lee supposedly match-fixed!.


The frame which was "this is a comedy of errors",starts at 45.30,the crazy,MAYBE DELIBERATE miss on the blue from Lee you can see at 1:11:38.


http://youtu.be/dWJ912Ispek






This was the frame where Lee strangely pots the pink and manages to mess up gettin position on the black despite havin an massive margin of error!. :roll:


http://youtu.be/GVHPRna4gJ8


   

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