MATTERS ARISING

Subject: MATTERS ARISING

thetubberlad wrote:

wildJONESEYE wrote:im absalutly numblowingly stuned here we are actually talking about Snooker Players being overworked

WOW

I think it's ridiculous... I can only agree with you Wild.

Take horseracing as an example: jockeys work most days of the week, most weeks of the year, do an awful lot more travelling than snooker players and work a lot more weekends than snooker players. Are we going to stop weekend racing for the sake of fathers who can only spend time with their kids at the weekend? No, it's a ridiculous suggestion.

I feel very sorry for any man who can't spend as much time as they would like with their young lad or little girl, if I put myself in that situation in a few years time, I would feel bad, very bad. Your children are obviously among the most important people in your lives, but sometimes sacrifices must be made.

And it's the child that has to be "sacrified"? What if you were that child?
I have never suggested there should not be week-end events. All I have said is that when there is no audience, with the technology we have today, week days are just as good as week-end days and could help some players to find a better balance. So why not do it?
And it's ridiculous to consider only competitive match play as being "work" for the snooker players. Do football players only "work" when they play in matches? How many hours a week do they work then? All sportsmen and women spend considerably much more time in practice and side work (fitness, promotion, exhibitions, travels ...) than in competitions.

Oh, hold on now a second. You've made what I said sound a lot worse than what it actually was.

Did I say a 'child' has to be sacrificed? No, Christ Almighty no. What I'm saying is that sometimes time with your children has to be sacrificed. Not all your time, or even most of your time. I may be young, and I'm not a father, and hopefully won't be for a good few years, but I can appreciate just how important children are in a person's life. They are by far the most important part of anyone's life, and God forbid if anything happened your children, you'll regret moments not spent with them.

I would actually agree with playing the main chunk of PTC events during the week, and the last sixteen or thirty two at the weekend. Not playing the whole thing during the week though, no, not at all.

Monique wrote:

Sonny wrote:
Being a professional snooker player is meaningless without outside interest. Outside interest peaks during weekends because it's when the vast majority of those contributing to the economy have a couple of days off and want to enjoy themselves and be entertained and sport is in the entertainment industry.

Yes outside interest peaks during week-ends. That doesn't prevent most major football (soccer) international matches to be played on week days ... of course it's evening, but week days. It's been like that for many, many years and I've never heard people complaining about it. It's all a question of organisation and habits.

Not strictly true... international football matches usually come two at a time, one on the weekend and one on the preceding or following weekday evening (not daytime), to minimise disruption to domestic football. The big summer tournaments span weekends and weekdays, just as the longer snooker tournaments do.


I don't really see the problem here. If the PTC events are going to be pitched for an audience - either in the venue or via TV, or both - then they need to be at weekends. If there's no intention of either getting venue attendance or TV/streaming coverage, then fine, have them whenever. But even if we take the extreme scenario, and say that EVERY PTC event is being targeted at an audience, and therefore EVERY tournament is over a weekend - then that's still not asking for people to work more than 30 or so weekends of 52, assuming they reach the final stages of every event (there'll be plenty of guys getting knocked out before the middle weekend of the WCs, and on Friday's in PTCs and so on). And of course, they don't have to enter the events anyway if they don't want to - as the golf world has found out to its benefit, the more tournaments you have, the more the players can spread their appearances out and pick and choose. If ranking events are taking up 30+ weeks a year, maybe that's enough for players to start picking and choosing?

Anyway, the crux of the issue is: the spectators control the sport, not the fans. If it's something where they don't come into conflict, i.e. the tournament doesn't have the fan presence, no problem. But if the needs of the fans and the needs of the players do conflict, sorry, but the fans have to come first.

NedB-H

thought my comments might kick off a morale debate and low and behold i return to see the inevitable has happened.

If the players care that much about their families and kids theyll get off their asses and go out and play as many times as they can to earn some money for their family.

If they want to use excuses like family well that their problem and they will slide down the rankings ( unless there like Ronnie and can do enough in the tournys they chose to enter)

Snookers moving forward and will become a full time sport played in all corners of the globe, so in the words of Randy Savage......

"Oooooooooh Yeah, your either on Hearns snooker bandwagon or you aint, diggittttttttttt"

this is the most surreal thread ive ever seen.

We Got Snooker Players Over Worked

We Got Kids having to get used to not having fathers at weekend that might harm them in later lifes.

now we got a x factor rejects brother quoting Randy Bloody Savage from WWF Wrestling ....

what Next Father Christmas Missus saying her husband always working christmas

wildJONESEYE wrote:this is the most surreal thread ive ever seen.

We Got Snooker Players Over Worked

We Got Kids having to get used to not having fathers at weekend that might harm them in later lifes.

now we got a x factor rejects brother quoting Randy Bloody Savage from WWF Wrestling ....

what Next Father Christmas Missus saying her husband always working christmas

One minute people complain theres not enough snooker, next minute we get Hearn in and get more tournaments and some more abroad and they worry about players not seeing their families as much

why dont we just let the sport die and these players can sign on the dole and play happy families

they already get far more time off compared to other professional sportsmen.

Plus they will only play in all of these weekends (what was it, 26 max out of 52 per year ? ) if they got to the final stages of every single event which lets face it will never happen.

frankly i find the whole thing laughable, political correctness, fathers 4 justice blah blah blah they can all stick themselves up their jacksie as far as im concerned

I have just read through all of these comments and i must say my mind is now goo. I dont think for 1 second that snooker players dont do alot of work on their game during the week but to think that they are overworked and its damaging their childrens welfare?? Seriously? Campared to other professional sportsmen, they live a relatively charmed life. Do these said children also not have mothers who can take care of them? My father was an International pilot and he spent on average of 34 weeks a year away from home and we all turned out fine as we all understood that it was his job. I also spend alot of time away from home in other countries for work as well. These are choices every profesional makes, be it in sport or in a chosen career. The difference in snooker is, they are allowed to choose not to attend certain events whereas i (and many others) are obligated to do that work, we cant pick and choose.

I give up on this thread and i'm very disappointed that what I wrote has being distorted again and again. I was suggesting to put PTCs with no audience on week days and to promote them otherwise. As it is now nobody can see those matches anyway. So why not make it a bit easier for players with a family? I don't get it. I don't get it at all.
I never suggested that the events with audiences should be moved on week days.
I also never suggested that there should be less events. I never suggested snooker players are overworked neither, but players themselves ask for the events to be better spread over the season. (Since end August a successful pro like MJW has only had 2 week-ends free, and he's doing PL also.) What's wrong with that? Why not look at the possibility? If not possible OK, but why refuse to even consider it?
Promoting streaming and making the matches available for later viewing would provide a lot of benefits: more matches could be recorded, viewers in mainland Europe and Asia could watch them without being penalised by time difference, which is particularly important for young people and international viewing. At this is equally true for week-end events BTW.
I'm afraid some reactions are just about old habits and selfishness of spoilt UK fans.
And I agree it IS surreal but not in the sense some of you imply it!

As for pick and choose, yes, maybe the top pros can do that (and be blamed for it), for the others there isn't enough money in snooker to allow them to do that and live decently. Contrary to other sports with higher profiles.

"I'm afraid some reactions are just about old habits and selfishness of spoilt UK fans.
And I agree it IS surreal but not in the sense some of you imply it!"

Thats a bit harsh to be fair Mon. I didnt personally attack you, i was replying to the general flow of the thread. I see no reason for moving the earlier quaification to the midweek but the latter stages should still remain on the weekends as that generates more interest in the casual fan to follow the sport. Since i have been a boy, the avergae week for nearly all families was work/school monday to friday and the weekend was all about playing sport and watching sport. This is a trend i think you will find is pretty much world wide.

Billy: first I was not targetting you and it might sound harsh but I'll stick to it because it's how I feel about it.
Next yes you wrote it "about watching sport". Well nobody can watch those events as it is now, isn't it? I was suggesting to make a change only for those events that precisely nobody can watch as it is now. Thats why I don't understand all the raging around my suggestion. As it is it would only provide MORE viewing opportunities, not less and it would ease things a bit for some players. It's a win/win situation and I can't understand for the life of me why things must be made harder for the players when they could be made easier without loss for the viewers.

As long as the players get the calender well in advance I don't see the problem. Look at other professions like Doctors, firemen, paramedics & all other shift workers. many of these have to work 40+ weekends a year and work off a rota with only 4 weeks in advance.

look at that and try and say its reasonable for snooker players to ask for weekday events. Also most golfers will play 30+ tournaments a year all over the weekends and travel far further and for longer around the world.

"Watching sport" does not always mean phsically watching it Mon. It also means watching the live scores and/or talking about it with your mates . I dont get to see alot of the sports i love (GAA) because they dont show it here in Holland but i do watch the live scoring when i can and being able to chat to a few people online that are watching it gives me the feeling of being involved somewhat. This is why they have live scoring (when it works ). I have no problem with them moving the earlier rounds to the mid week but am going to stand firm in my view that the latter stages should remain on the weekend.

well as it is and with a hindsight it would indeed depriving us all of Wild's swearing and ranting over the non functioning live scores... so I give it up. You are all right and i'm wrong. A week-end without that isn't worth it!

There really is no need to be like that Mon. We are all entiteled to our views. If we disagree then we disagree.

Monique wrote:well as it is and with a hindsight it would indeed depriving us all of Wild's swearing and ranting over the non functioning live scores... so I give it up. You are all right and i'm wrong. A week-end without that isn't worth it!

Monique

Incompetence makes me want to hit someone so Sue Me

World Snooker Is incompetence Idiotic Fools that cant organised a simple thing like live scoring. so what hope has this sport got if they cant do the basics right.

now we Still Waiting for the Draw for EPTC4 we already Got EPTC5 its a joke they are a joke.

yes i swear because they embarrassed this sport day after day after day.

if i was Barry Hearn the whole Lot would be Out of Work and Their Kids can see them at weekends all they want.

The fact that the live scoring is, more often than not, down is really annoying. For some tournements its the only way we can keep an eye on the matches and follow the progress. It would'nt cost that much to fix this so i dont understand why this hasnt been done.

eirebilly wrote:The fact that the live scoring is, more often than not, down is really annoying. For some tournements its the only way we can keep an eye on the matches and follow the progress. It would'nt cost that much to fix this so i dont understand why this hasnt been done.

Live Scoring was the only real interaction fans had with PTC is it a crime wanting to know whats happening in a Minor Ranking Tournament.

Thing is, the live scoring is so important and so easy to do at very little cost so i dont understand why this has'nt been fixed.

Monique wrote:I give up on this thread and i'm very disappointed that what I wrote has being distorted again and again. I was suggesting to put PTCs with no audience on week days and to promote them otherwise. As it is now nobody can see those matches anyway. So why not make it a bit easier for players with a family? I don't get it. I don't get it at all.
I never suggested that the events with audiences should be moved on week days.
I also never suggested that there should be less events. I never suggested snooker players are overworked neither, but players themselves ask for the events to be better spread over the season. (Since end August a successful pro like MJW has only had 2 week-ends free, and he's doing PL also.) What's wrong with that? Why not look at the possibility? If not possible OK, but why refuse to even consider it?
Promoting streaming and making the matches available for later viewing would provide a lot of benefits: more matches could be recorded, viewers in mainland Europe and Asia could watch them without being penalised by time difference, which is particularly important for young people and international viewing. At this is equally true for week-end events BTW.
I'm afraid some reactions are just about old habits and selfishness of spoilt UK fans.
And I agree it IS surreal but not in the sense some of you imply it!

As for pick and choose, yes, maybe the top pros can do that (and be blamed for it), for the others there isn't enough money in snooker to allow them to do that and live decently. Contrary to other sports with higher profiles.

I agree with everything expect the bold bit which was a tad unnecessary

i do agree on spreading the events more evenly across the season thats only common sense and was mentioned in my original post on this thread. but for the right reasons and not because of kids. a governing body has responsibility to the game and has to think of that and not of family concerns sorry but in any business that has to be the concerns of the individual and not of the management or directors.

yes family comes first but thats a individual player or workers concerns and what is right for them and their family world snooker cant start to organize a tour round that.

for to long snooker being part time as it is now the tournaments is there on a weekend and every player has the choice to put their job or their families first that is their right but then they miss out on what theirs career has to offer you cant have it both ways.

Regarding Sheffield PTC they could have played them on Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday with Qualifying Amataur day on Sunday if need be but as has been mentioned if the PTC has any ambition to be streamed or even at some point have audiences there it has to be on a Weekends.

The events can be better spread of course, of that i have no doubt. I still stand by my point though that the final stages of even the non televised tournements should be played out on a weekend so as to maximise supporters interests and participation in debating on forums such as this.

Once again Wild I never asked for events with audience being moved and of course it applies to PTC if in the future they have one. As for streaming, because it is easy to record and be stored for later viewing, it is particularly suitable for events on working days and during working hours.
I also never asked for the tour to be organised around players family constraints but I'm baffled at the fact that IF it is possible to do it without loss for the fans, the reaction on here was to reject even the idea of any change in schedule before giving it a serious thought.
I'm also not happy with the fact that what I wrote has been distorted, despite the fact that I tried to explain myself in several posts and that I've got stick for things I never said or suggested.
Finally my outburst about spoilt UK fans comes from the fact that in most countries we get to see a lot less snooker than you do and we have to travel further to see it life. UK fans cry about their sport going down and the need for globalisation. Yet every time a suggestion is made that could improve the situation for non UK viewers - like investing more on streaming and storing recorded matches rather on physical presence of audience, earlier starts for finals, WC final on the Sunday rather than the Monday as this is a working day for everyone but UK citizens - the immediate reaction seems to be a big NoNo.

What ive rejected is Taking Families in to consideration in Running a sport or Business. Not in change Someons Said Having Qualifying Day on thursday not fair because Amateur Got other Jobs and if Qualifying was on a weekend more could enter so where do we draw the line here Possibly Play Qualifiers On Sunday,Last 128,64,32 on Monday and Tuesday and Last 16 through to end the following Saturday.

so in effect using 2 Weekends for 1 PTC then Spreading it about More but for me that would be for the benefit of the play and players and for the Right Reasons some Last 32 at the Academy not finishing until 2 am sunday and they back on the table at 10am with 4 matches to play.

It is all rather difficult as to what to do. Unfortunately weekends still seem to be the most viable option with the lower ranking qualifiers having to work to support themselves Monday through Friday and with the younger players possibly having school during the same time period. In spreading out the events this may minimalise the impact on jobs and school.

Playing the events in a compacted weekend schedule seems to me to be the best solution for all those concerned.

I do agree with Mon on the start times of the World finals. Starting at 8pm (9pm here) is very late and as she said, we all have to get up in the morning for work so that is something that i would also like to see adressed.

Well Wild for me, I think it would be wise to take personal and family considerations into ANY business rather than not do it because it's human being you deal with, not machines, and human beings are more efficient and productive and willing to give it their best when happy than when they are stressed and feel under duress.
And this BTW is not a reflection specific to snooker and its politics, it's a general consideration.

yes but Monique you cant consider every individual case as Eirebillie pointed out Weekends would suit some players better than others the same way week days would suit others so you cant make decisions on individual needs whats best for the sport has to be taken.

Regarding World or any final lets be brutal here both UK and Masters Finals are at 8pm British Time. WHY?????

Lets use sense here

Both are Best of 19 Proberbly 8/11 Sessions it does not make sense having finals start that late here but i feel for people on the continent after Pre Match Prep get them on its Probably about 9.20pm Before the first ball potted.

I never asked for individual needs to be taken into consideration. This suggestion was in the SPA proposal because, I suppose, several players put it forward. If the reaction here had been "Ok, let's have a long hard look at it, let's find out why this was put in the proposal, let's see what's the pro and cons and what the players as a community think about it" that would have been absolutely fine with me. But that's not what happened. What happened was a load of aggressive negative reactions before even giving the suggestion a proper thought and distorting what I had written to top it off.

nothing aggressive just common sense.

if the PTC is going to get bigger and better it can not be played on weekdays it really is that simple so players will have to accept that.

the way SPA put it forward was as if thats all we can expect from the PTC is Behind closed doors broken down Live Scoring Coverage if thats the case then yes fine play it mid week but surely SPA Got to be pushing for more coverage for their members than that ?