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Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Andre147

https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/20/john-vir ... esJDBZIgVQ

It seems as though BBC have taken the decision to get rid of Virgo and Taylor after next year's World Championships.

I believe this will please many, especially in DT's case. For what it's worth, I think both former players and commentators have done a fantastic job over the years. Yes some things could have been better, especially in DT's case and his knowledge of the players, etc, but overall they've been good in the comms box and if next year's world champs is indeed their last, then all the best for both of them.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Ah I haven’t finished listening to the podcast yet but Virgo was saying he’d probably be finished “sooner rather than later.”

Can’t say I’m disappointed about Dennis but I think Virgo still has something to offer.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

Iranu wrote:Ah I haven’t finished listening to the podcast yet but Virgo was saying he’d probably be finished “sooner rather than later.”

Can’t say I’m disappointed about Dennis but I think Virgo still has something to offer.


In a way, I am kind of sad about this. Both of them are big personalities, and can be entertaining and funny in their own way. There are a lot of fans who love them on the BBC.

But, at the same time, it's hard to argue too much with the BBC's decision to shake up the commentary team. Virgo said it himself, they just don't keep up-to-date with the modern game. Instead of taking a grumpy attitude and acting like; "All players are the same", maybe learn something about the current players. Watch Eurosport occasionally. At least learn the player's names. "Oh, I've never watched this player before" is said far too often.

It's a cushy job. There's what, nine days of the UK Championship, eight days of The Masters and 17 days of The Crucible. That's 34 days a year of BBC work. (41, if you count the Welsh Open on BBC Wales.) You basically get eleven months out of the year to play golf or whatever. It's not like it's asking a lot to watch a bit of snooker on TV, or google research the players before you commentate on them.

The sad thing is, I think if they knew something about the modern game I'd be happy for them to stay. Dennis can be funny, and even Virgo's over the top excitement adds something.

But they just haven't got the modern knowledge, and don't seem bothered acquiring it

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby lhpirnie

SnookerFan wrote:
Iranu wrote:Ah I haven’t finished listening to the podcast yet but Virgo was saying he’d probably be finished “sooner rather than later.”

Can’t say I’m disappointed about Dennis but I think Virgo still has something to offer.


In a way, I am kind of sad about this. Both of them are big personalities, and can be entertaining and funny in their own way. There are a lot of fans who love them on the BBC.

But, at the same time, it's hard to argue too much with the BBC's decision to shake up the commentary team. Virgo said it himself, they just don't keep up-to-date with the modern game. Instead of taking a grumpy attitude and acting like; "All players are the same", maybe learn something about the current players. Watch Eurosport occasionally. At least learn the player's names. "Oh, I've never watched this player before" is said far too often.

It's a cushy job. There's what, nine days of the UK Championship, eight days of The Masters and 17 days of The Crucible. That's 34 days a year of BBC work. (41, if you count the Welsh Open on BBC Wales.) You basically get eleven months out of the year to play golf or whatever. It's not like it's asking a lot to watch a bit of snooker on TV, or google research the players before you commentate on them.

The sad thing is, I think if they knew something about the modern game I'd be happy for them to stay. Dennis can be funny, and even Virgo's over the top excitement adds something.

But they just haven't got the modern knowledge, and don't seem bothered acquiring it

Yes, I have nothing against them personally, but part of being a 'professional' is to continually upgrade skills and knowledge. John Virgo seemed to suggest that he 'knows all the shots', but he certainly doesn't know all the players, which is something we have a right to expect. The BBC has a reputation for creating 'institutions' out of its broadcasters, but I don't think anyone should be given a job for life, and 76 is well above normal retirement age. John Virgo can still be involved via his exhibition commentaries. It now gives someone else the chance that he and Dennis enjoyed for many years. As we have noted, some of the younger guys are well up to the job.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

lhpirnie wrote:Yes, I have nothing against them personally, but part of being a 'professional' is to continually upgrade skills and knowledge. John Virgo seemed to suggest that he 'knows all the shots', but he certainly doesn't know all the players, which is something we have a right to expect. The BBC has a reputation for creating 'institutions' out of its broadcasters, but I don't think anyone should be given a job for life, and 76 is well above normal retirement age. John Virgo can still be involved via his exhibition commentaries. It now gives someone else the chance that he and Dennis enjoyed for many years. As we have noted, some of the younger guys are well up to the job.


This was his exact quote;

"‘I think they’re probably looking for people who are more in touch with the modern day player. Although I think all players are the same aren’t they? They play shots, there’s not many shots that people play that I haven’t seen, you know. I’m not criticising the decision, I know nothing lasts for ever."

He seems disgusted that the BBC wants to have commentators who know more about the modern game. As if that's something they have no right to expect of people who are paid to be expert commentators. That's telling. All players aren't the same at the end of the day.

There are people who have commentated that know far more about the modern game, but have far less personality than these two. Take Joe Perry. I enjoy his commentary, and he knows his stuff, but he can be a little dry at times. This is the opposite of Virgo and Taylor who are big personalities, but don't know anything about professional snooker if it happened after 1991. Maybe a better attitude would be to try to keep abreast of the game, stop whining that your employers expecting you to know what you're talking about and actually try to get better. Or at least Google a few stats about players you're about to be commenting on pre-match.

They just don't seem to want to do that. They are a lot of fans who will miss them, but what can you do? If the BBC are moving in a different direction, you either adapt or you leave.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Dan-cat

I dont see why they should retire/be retired if they can still do the job properly. Absolute no reason why you can't be still very useful in your 70s.

They've never known who the new players are. Doesn't mean that they aren't great - and I mean great - broadcasters.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby mick745

The bbc have left this decision too long, but who are the dynamic young commentators who will take their places. Virgo and Taylor sadly became parodies of themselves and got stale. It was terrible when Virgo complained (but caught on mike) that the length of session meant he might miss that afternoon's horse racing as if watching snooker was keeping him away from more important things.

Taylor is hardly the epitome of the modern man and could they trust him not to say anything inappropriate that the PC police would complain about?

Also they were very much stuck in the 1980s, talking about players that many young viewers had heard about or cared about, Patsy Fagan, Cliff Wilson, etc. When i grew up watching snooker in the 80s i dont think i'd have wanted them to hark on about the golden age of the 1950s. It is 40years since Steve Davis first lifted the world championship the game has moved on heck of a lot since DT won in 1985, many viewers werent even born then.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:I dont see why they should retire/be retired if they can still do the job properly. Absolute no reason why you can't be still very useful in your 70s.

They've never known who the new players are. Doesn't mean that they aren't great - and I mean great - broadcasters.


It sounds to me like the BBC are moving in a different direction, wanting people to know about the modern game more. If that's the case, it's hard to justify keeping people like Taylor and Virgo, who by Virgo's own admission DON'T know about the modern game.

If they're just getting rid of them because of their age, that's different. Obviously, they won't be around forever so we need to start looking to the future. That doesn't necessarily mean you sack off everybody who is of a certain age and then bring in younger people for the sake of it. We need competent people, who can do the job. Maybe start bringing in the newer commentators, and phase out the oldies gradually?

Also, bear in mind, people who are going to be able to commentate full time aren't going to be the youngest of people. You're going to be ex-players rather than current ones, so you're looking at people in their late 40s/early 50s at the youngest probably.

But I'm fine with the BBC moving in a new direction of more knowledgeable commentators. That's something they desperately need. Virgo and Taylor could stay around as personalities or for features, or whatever. But I dislike the attitude that they're giving off that it's some outrage that they should actually know something about snooker. Maybe commentating at The Seniors is more something that Virgo and Taylor would enjoy. That's the sort of thing that they know about.

Also, I'd humbly suggest sacking of Parrott. I'd say he equally added nothing to the product. Maybe less than Virgo/Taylor. He knows bog all, and isn't even that funny.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Dan-cat wrote:I dont see why they should retire/be retired if they can still do the job properly. Absolute no reason why you can't be still very useful in your 70s.

They've never known who the new players are. Doesn't mean that they aren't great - and I mean great - broadcasters.

Define properly?

Dennis has been useless for years, I don’t think he’s a great broadcaster at all and it has nothing to do with his age. Although the increased rambling, forgetfulness etc might be.

I also think not knowing the players matters. Your argument against my dislike of Jill is that presenters don’t need to be experts because that’s what the pundits and commentators are there for. Well, the current tour should be part of that expertise.

You can get away with it if you’re economical with what you say like Hendry, or even have the raw excitement of a Virgo. But Dennis brings nothing to the table that Ken hasn’t been aping for the last 5+ years.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby mick745

It worked better when there was a commentator pundit duo, i never thought it was as good with two ex-players together. Jack Karnhm and Clive Everton were the best out and out commentators but Ted Lowe's style with an ex pro alongside worked just as good.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

Maybe what the BBC needs to do is start teaming a journalist with a former player.

Take Hendry, he admits himself that he doesn't watch a lot of modern snooker. But as one of the most successful players of all time, he's earned a right to criticise a shot or a style of play. He actually brings something useful to commentary. If he's teamed with Hendon, or somebody like that, who is there to know the stats or whatever, that way you can have one commentating each filling both sides of it.

Though, at the same time, people like Foulds and Angles keep proving you can be a former player that knows plenty about the modern game. Though Angles was playing a lot more recently, I guess. But you get the feeling he'd keep up-to-date with the game either way.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Also sometimes they don’t know players who’ve been around for a good few years, or who’ve reached a semi or whatever earlier in the season.

They should at least be able to hide the fact that they don’t know these players by spending 10 minutes on Cue Tracker and Wikipedia. The fact that they’re so gleefully unashamed of their lack of knowledge is as bad if not worse than the lack itself (and this is something that does snake hiss me off about Hendry because he’ll end up like them in 5-10 years.)

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby mick745

Is it too much to ask that they take an interest in the very thing that provides their living? Some enthusiasm for the game wouldnt go amiss occasionally. Something like "i am very excited about seeing this young player who has been earning plaudits this season and achieved a great victory over (insert player) in the last 16 of the Northern Ireland Open earlier this season"

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby mick745

Let's face it the bbc dont seem interested in non-bbc events. A player could win 5 or 6 ranking titles going into the WSC and it would barely get a mention. The might mention instead their defeat in the first round of the Masters though.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Dan-cat wrote:Give me Virgs and DT over Pezza (all my sentences go up at the end) and Walker (let's all have a cry) anyday of the bucking week whihc let's face is who is gonna replace them.

Perry’s utter rubbish yes, and Walker’s a different skillset but when commentating has at least researched what happened in the bucking qualifiers.

Problem for the Beeb is Eurosport have been snapping up the better commentators.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Prop

Dan-cat wrote:Give me Virgs and DT over Pezza (all my sentences go up at the end) and Walker (let's all have a cry) anyday of the bucking week whihc let's face is who is gonna replace them.


<laugh> Perry isn’t terrible (purely in the context of ‘new’ commentators) but yeah, keep Walker away from the mic. It’s a job he wasn’t born to do.

I’m going to have a listen to the podcast.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Juddernaut88

Dan-cat wrote:Give me Virgs and DT over Pezza (all my sentences go up at the end) and Walker (let's all have a cry) anyday of the bucking week whihc let's face is who is gonna replace them.


:hatoff:

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby lhpirnie

Dan-cat wrote:I dont see why they should retire/be retired if they can still do the job properly. Absolute no reason why you can't be still very useful in your 70s.

They've never known who the new players are. Doesn't mean that they aren't great - and I mean great - broadcasters.

Yes, my view was not an ageist one. But John Virgo and Dennis Taylor got their opportunities when Ted Lowe, Jack Karnehm retired and Clive Everton was shunned. They have benefited enormously, for decades. It would simply be unfair to deny that opportunity to others. Yes, it may take time for the next generation of commentators to establish themselves, but change is always present in life. Ideally, this could have been forseen a few years ago to ease the transition.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

lhpirnie wrote:Ideally, this could have been forseen a few years ago to ease the transition.

To be fair I think it was.

I’ve had the feeling for a few years they’ve been grooming Ken to be the next Dennis, and obviously they hired Perry a year or so ago, Davis and Parrott (for however good you think they are or aren’t) have been taking commentary duties from Virgo and Dennis seemingly more often.

It seems Judd’s comments have accelerated things, rightly or wrongly.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Prop wrote:I’m going to have a listen to the podcast.

It’s actually a perfect example of how out of touch Virgo is with the current game.

Great interview though, he’s a great talker.

Edit: having now listened to it fully, the revelation comes at the end and he’s very graceful about it although you can hear the sadness behind the words.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby RunningSide

All the best BBC commentators go to end,Dan maskall tennis,Peter Allis golf,Peter Osullivan racing,Motson football all worked upto the end of their lives,not liked by everyone but missed when retired, snooker would suffer without current commentators, I'm all for bringing in new ,young options but a sudden change would be difficult for many people.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

I actually don't mind Rob Walker's commentary, if I'm honest.

At least he's done some research. And you can tell that he actually knows the players backstage because of the other work he does for World Snooker. That gives him some advantage over the other; "Duh! Who is this?" commentary that some on the BBC give it. And he knows his limits, so if he doesn't know something he can ask it of his partner. But the questions he'll ask of them are interesting or pertinent. If his partner is a current or recent player, Rob acts as a bridge between the fans and the player commentating. What might seem obvious and not worth mentioning by a player, might be interesting for the fans to hear.

I don't see him as being somebody who commentates on the finals or whatever. But as somebody who can stand in if they're short staffed, or who does the match that the BBC tuck away on the red button that's considered the 'b match', he's fine.

If anything, he can annoy more sometimes with his backstage interviews or when he tries to be laddish. Calling stuff 'The Cruce' or whatever.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

Iranu wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:Ideally, this could have been forseen a few years ago to ease the transition.

To be fair I think it was.

I’ve had the feeling for a few years they’ve been grooming Ken to be the next Dennis, and obviously they hired Perry a year or so ago, Davis and Parrott (for however good you think they are or aren’t) have been taking commentary duties from Virgo and Dennis seemingly more often.

It seems Judd’s comments have accelerated things, rightly or wrongly.

Oh, and they did have Ebdon on staff as well but either they’ve decided he’s a bad look because of his views, or he thinks they’re in on some grand conspiracy and doesn’t want to work with them.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby cupotee

Ian mcculloch’s knowledge and enthusiasm would be really good for the presentation , allan taylor i think would fit in well too , and more lisowski when he’s no longer in tournaments , there’s three that would add well to the mix.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby SnookerFan

Iranu wrote:
Prop wrote:I’m going to have a listen to the podcast.

It’s actually a perfect example of how out of touch Virgo is with the current game.

Great interview though, he’s a great talker.

Edit: having now listened to it fully, the revelation comes at the end and he’s very graceful about it although you can hear the sadness behind the words.


To be fair, I have only read the article. Not listened to the podcast yet. So my comments about being self-entitled were really based on one quote from there.

I legitimately wasn't trying to sound harsh to him, or to Taylor. Just that I can see BBC's reasons for trying to move on for a different type of commentator.

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby McManusFan

It's sort of a shame, but it had to happen sooner or later. I think it's good that they'll get a send off world champs. I'm slightly worried as to who will replace them though, hopefully more McManus and Hendry - can't stand Perry, he's like a boring Ebdon! Rob Walker is ok, I just wish he'd try harder to pronounce the player's names (Lou Ha O'teean for example).

Re: Virgo and Taylor last World Champs?

Postby Iranu

cupotee wrote:Ian mcculloch’s knowledge and enthusiasm would be really good for the presentation , allan taylor i think would fit in well too , and more lisowski when he’s no longer in tournaments , there’s three that would add well to the mix.

I don’t think players should commentate or do punditry if they’re taking their snooker seriously. I did like Jack at the Worlds though. Maybe he could do more next year since it’s the end of the season anyway

Ronnie being the exception because he’s shown he can make it work. Look at Murphy’s results when he was doing commentary and punditry.